A Little Debate About North Korea

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Kevin, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Great post.

    To put this in more simpler terms "two wrongs don't make a right". Just because an enemy does something terrible, doesn't mean you need to drop to their level and kill innocent people as well.
    Enkidu likes this.
  2. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    He is a douche. However, he is also an expert debater and he tends to take on fights that other politicians won't. Most politicians in the UK do nothing but collect their wage cheque. The vast majority of them were found to be abusing their wages privileges and using government money to pay for their second houses.
  3. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    There was a book written by a historian (and I cannot remember the name of the historian or the name of the book and am too lazy to use Google) that was focused in large part on the Japanese surrender. According to this historian, even after the second atomic bomb was dropped and the Emperor had made the determination to surrender, there was nearly a coup among some the Imperial Japanese Army among those who wanted to fight to the bitter end. IIRC, there was some cloak & dagger used by the Emperor to even get the word out that Japan would accept surrender as those who wished to fight to the bitter end were trying to prevent the surrender.

    Moreover, things like this are always looked at with perfect 20/20 hindsight by some people. They often sift through the data and cherry pick the data that supports their position and ignore that which does not (Nate Silver talks about this explicitly in his excellent book "The Signal and the Noise" in discussing bogus conspiracy theories like that the United States allowed Japan to attack Pearl Harbor as an excuse to get into the war). The supposed willingness of Japan to surrender before or after the first atomic bomb may or may not be true, but the real question is whether, with ALL the data available to those who made the decision, it would have been reasonably for the United States to think this was the case.

    Based on all I have read on the subject (which admittedly was some time ago and I cannot recall all the details, but I did read widely on this issue from various historians), I don't think those who are claiming that Japan was on the verge of surrender are right, and even if they were, I don't think there is any reason to believe that the US had any reason to think that. Indeed, IIRC, a senior officer in the IJA who survived the war had revealed when asked why Japan didn't surrender after the first atomic weapon was dropped that the Japanese didn't think the United States had a second such weapon. If my memory is correct (again, too lazy to google) that is pretty strong contrary evidence that Japan actually was willing to surrender.

    I should note that when I refer to "surrender" I am talking about unconditional surrender, which is an important consideration. Japan had made some noise about a willingness to surrender but gave numerous conditions to such a surrender. Ultimately, I believe the only condition that the allies accepted was that the Emperor got to remain in power.
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  4. MattCMMA

    MattCMMA Master

    The US had 2 shiney new bombs.. and they needed live testing. As I pointed out above about the Firebombing of Japan if you look at the list of cities that were bombed. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not on that list and left untouched. Even all the while Hiroshima was Japan's 7th largest city. The US didn't spend all that money creating a weapon like this to not live test it. you fire bomb numerous and most cities surrounding the target areas, naturally the people who survived run to the cities untouched. You now have a populated city, undemolished test area to first test this new bomb. Also to mention that the 2 bombs dropped were of different designs.
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  5. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    If I were a UK politician, I would abuse my wage privileges to get dentistry for my mistresses.
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  6. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    There is some truth to this. There is also a reason that does not invalidate my belief that the United States used the bombs to end the war. They chose targets (both of which had military value, one of the cities was where much of the war industry was located and the other had a huge military base there and IIRC something like 20-25% of the deaths of one of the city were military -- again too lazy to google), the destruction of which was thought would cause such a psychological shock that it would immediately end the war, and some cities were spared from much of the bombing for this purpose. That does not invalidate anything that I have said.

    Again, I don't mean to make it sound like the justification of the use of the atomic bombs is an easy case. Indeed, it was one I have wrestled back and forth on over the years (which is one of the reasons I read so much about it from various sources 15-20 years ago) and I have certainly switched my views from believing it was unjustified to thinking it was justified and back and forth again several times, but ultimately I have come to the conclusion, that it ultimately was justified. Let's just say this, I certainly think that reasonable minds can differ on this issue. I would never say someone was crazy or irrational for coming to the conclusion that it wasn't justified (assuming they are basing it on rational reasons grounded in facts and not one-sided propaganda), but I also think that anyone who was being honest would have to agree that a belief that they were ultimately justified is a pretty rational decision to make as well.
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  7. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I think that it is difficult for any of us to make an informed decision about it. They were both military targets. And the USA did drop atomic bombs on them. That cannot be disputed.

    What we don't know is what was said behind closed doors between delegates. There is the chance that people said what they wanted afterwards to suit their own agendas (or those of their superiors).

    Did the USA drop the second bomb to test the bomb, or to show Russia (and everyone else), not to fuck with them? I guess it's plausible, but it's speculation at best. I guess you could support this argument more if you knew conclusively that the Japanese wanted to surrender before the bomb(s) were dropped...but we can't know that...so we're back to speculation.

    You do make a good point about the Japanese. Their people are very honourable, so the chances of them wanting to give up were much smaller than other countries. With the Nazis, I always thought that there were some horrible people doing bad things at the top, but I imagine a lot of the people in the army were just doing what they were told, and were probably praying for the war to end every day.
  8. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Kevin, the reason Hitler and Stalin were on the cover of time as you pointed out was not because the west liked them, admired them or backed them...as I and DeeD pointed out, the reason is as follows:

    TIME’s Person of the Year is bestowed by the editors on the person or persons who most affected the news and our lives, for good or ill, and embodied what was important about the year. See who made the grade over TIME’s first eight decades.

    Read more: http://poy.time.com#ixzz2QMQBkxNC
  9. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

  10. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    I have now lost all remaining respect for Time Magazine.
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  11. Charlay Atkins

    Charlay Atkins Samurai

    What was this debate about again?:confused:
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  12. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Damn, now we need to edit the Wikipedia page to reflect SifuPhil's recent accolade :)
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  13. MattCMMA

    MattCMMA Master

  14. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

  15. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

  16. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    SifuPhil - Man of the Year

    13 April 2013

    Homepage Background​
    Hunter S. Thompson (Dec.)
    Chuck Norris & Bruce Lee
    2.0 / March 5, 1958; 55 years ago
    Written in​
    Available in​
    Supreme Power
    To Kill GPLv3+

    SifuPhil is the pseudonym of Bruce Norris (Convolution Theorem), the bastard child of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris. (#Cloning). "SifuPhil" is short for "Sacred, Intelligent, Friendly Universal Power Has Infinite Love". He likes puppies, My Little Pony and snacking on his own mixture of Skittles, caramel popcorn and Snickers bars.


    The underlying work on SifuPhil was conceived and developed by Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris during breaks in filming Way of the Dragon. He was originally intended to be coded in the Fortran 77 program in the dissertation "Interactive Computer Package Demonstrating: Sampling Convolution and Design of the Supreme Being" (the Dissertation) on the University of Hulabaloo's Honeywell 66/80 mainframe, centrally administered by the University Computing Centre.[1]
    On March 5, 1958 the synthesis of SifuPhil was completed, resulting in the "birth" of a "human" baby.
    SifuPhil was designed as an Extended Service Life (ESL) model and is due to expire on March 4, 2458.

    The Convolution Theorem

    Main articles: Convolution and Convolution theorem
    SifuPhil is regarded as the most significant design concept yet achieved underlying core techniques in human evolution manipulation.[2][3][4]
    The SifuPhil was balanced and blueprinted as a Martial Art Master beta-Model 1.00.01 [5][6][7] We say that:

    SifuPhil is the Tops!

    In addition to his Martial Prowess Main Processing Module (MPMPM) he also contains auxiliary modules SSS (Supreme Stud Services), HB (Handsome Bastard) and a radically modified version of the HP&S (Humor, Parody and Satire) module.


    Colorful displays demonstrating internal martial arts principles; can be mounted with just a few drinks; an interactive user-friendly dialogue obviating the need for learning social graces.
    As part of the SSS module SifuPhil possesses the Premium Pecker Package (PPP) along with smart-phone-activation capabilities.

    Imagine God. Now imagine God with a bald head and a ponytail. You've got a rough estimation of SifuPhil.


    Strippers, alcohol, marijuana

    SifuPhil has developed quite nicely, thank you for asking.

    External Links

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  17. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Genius. We need to get that on Wikipedia now! :)
  18. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Where do I click for "double plus good" like?
    BTW... that is Newspeak from 1984... for you Totalitarians that have never read it... LMAO.
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  19. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

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  20. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Let's get this crazy war argument back on track :)

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