A Little Debate About North Korea

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Kevin, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I'm a little confused by what you said. My justification for 9/11? At what part did I say 9/11 was justified? Please do not put words into my mouth. I did not say that, nor did I suggest it. You cannot completely create a lie just to support your own agenda. Please re-read my previous posts if you want to clarify what I said.

    You suggested Palestinian people are evil for cheering 9/11. I'm just pointing out that people from my country and yours, have in the past, cheered when innocent people have been killed in an attack. It's a horrible act from both sides, which is why we can't take the moral high ground on the issue.

    Palestine was never a country = neither was Israel. I was referring to the people of Palestinian origin who lived in the region during the time.

    "The Jordanians have killed more "Palestinians" than Israel. About 20,000." - I'm not sure how relevant this is to the discussion.

    With regards to the 1948 proposal, it was no surprise that the Arabs rejected the proposal. Arabs made up two thirds of the population there at the time, and the UN proposed a solution that handed the Jewish people half the land. The Jews were pleased with the result, the Arabs unsurprisingly were not, and civil war broke out.

    I do know the background of the issue. I just do not agree with the Bill O'Reilly rhetoric that the Palestinian people are evil Nazi's that are causing all the problems. Your arguments are very one sided, which is what I take issue with. It is a very biased and very unfair view. Both countries have caused peace to stall, whether it be through walking away from a diplomatic solution, or by continuing to attack the other party when a solution is trying to be found.

    And I do not agree with the fact that Europe should always support Israel as it's the only "Democracy". As I said before, there is no true democracy out there as governments pretty much do what they want when they are elected. I don't like religion and I do not agree with many things within the Arab world such as the way they treat women etc, though I have met many Arabs and I have met many Israelis...and they are not evil. They are generally good people caught in a fucked up situation...much like the people in North Ireland were. You are painting a picture that all Palestinians are terrorists and that peace deals are solely breaking down because of them.
     
  2. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    That's a fair point. I'm not sure why. I'm quite interested about that now. Got any references about the issue?

    It's 1am here...so my energy for debating is all but gone. So I will just summarise by saying: the whole situation is fucked. None of this is going to be resolved in our lifetime.

    This is what happens when a foreign power (the UK initially) start trying to draw divide up a country into areas, whilst simultaneously trying to accommodate historic religious lines, historic political lines etc. The same thing happened in Africa when European powers divided the continent up between themselves....and as a result they divided ethnic groups between two or more different countries. Which resulted in lots of competing ethnic groups trying to run a country.

    So, I reckon we are about 2 more pages Godwin's Law rears it's ugly head. Bonus points to the one who crosses the line!
     
  3. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    At my fingertips, no, but perhaps I will try to find some tomorrow.

    In fairness, references to Hitler and the Nazis would not be out of line in a discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict particularly given the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al-Husseini's direct participation in, and planning of, the Holocaust, including plans to expand it to the Middle East and the lands that would later become Israel. It also wouldn't be out of line given that Nazi generals were actually allowed by the British to lead Arab armies during the war of Israeli independence (the Brits were also equipping many of those Arab armies).
     
    Kevin likes this.
  4. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    interesting i didnt know that (y)
     
  5. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Very few people do. But it is historical fact. The Mufti was tried and convicted in absentia for war crimes at Nuremberg, but lived out the rest of his life in Egypt, if I am not mistaken. I believe he died in the 1970s.
     
  6. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    learn something new everyday , Thanks Enkidu
     
  7. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

  8. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

  9. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Here....defending the Taliban. You wrote:


    I am not sure I agree with "they got what they deserved". What happened in NY was terrible, however thousands upon thousands of innocent people have died because of these wars. Plus it is well known all the attackers were from Saudi Arabia.
     
  10. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    You brought Israel into a North Korea discussion claiming something they have not said...

    Here:

    Israel and Pakistan have them too. They have both said in the past they would use them.
     
  11. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    And here about 9/11 you wrote:

    Though I think it's important to understand the context of the situation there. The USA provides billions of dollars in aid and weapons to their enemy.

    Context of the situation? Really! So we give aid to Egypt also, and to about one hundred other countries. In what context should innocent civilians die?
     
  12. dmach

    dmach Martial Archivest

    Appears my earlier attempt to lighten the mood failed?

    I thought we were talking about our concerns about North Korea? Yet we have drifted into U.S/UK foreign Policy; Isreal vs Hamas; Muslim Nazis (thats a new one for me to - thanks Enkidu :)) Iraq; Saddam Hussein and Medieval laws concerning Catholics and the Royal Family.

    I'll be honest fellas, I've got nothing to add to the above conversation that is Earth shattering or politically insightful. My points of view are my own, right or wrong.

    AFGHANISTAN: History has shown that ANY Military presence is a waste of time in that country, just look at the Soviet occupation in the late 80's/early 90's. They achieved nothing and to be frank... Coalition forces are warm and fuzzy compared to how the Soviets acted - didn't do a lot of good did it? I will say however that I can see a certain STRATEGY for being there. If you tie up enemy forces in one place - they can't be used anywhere else.

    ISREAL: I have to admit, there are times I look at what is happening on the Gaza strip and think that Isreal crosses the line regularly. But by the same token, Isreal cannot afford to play nice BECAUSE they are not only the only Democratic state in the region, they are the only JEWISH state in the region. Heres a thought, would a Christian state in that region behave any different? And lets be honest - the Jewish people have to be the most FUCKED OVER people in Modern History - are you that surprised this is how they act as consequence?

    NUKES AND WHO HAS THEM: Pakistan has the bomb, but so does India and there is no love lost between the two. IF a extremist Muslim faction does seize control in Pakistan - they are still going to have to contend with their heavily armed Hindu neighbours.

    If Isreal WAS going to use Nukes - they would have started lobbing them into IRAQ when Saddam started throwing Scuds at Tel Aviv in Round 1 of the Gulf War.

    North Korea has Nukes, funny how no one has mentioned the CHINESE - who don't need rockets to launch Nukes against North Korea - they can stand at the border and throw the bloody things.

    While we are on the topic of the Chinese - would they REALLY allow Kim Jong Un to do ANYTHING that could jeapordize their trade and Economy?

    Can we get get back to talking about the Korean Peninsula now?
     
    Kevin, Locutus and Mr.Bond like this.
  13. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

  14. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    I know I am commenting off topic... but really sorry to see Thatcher's death.
     
  15. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

  16. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I really should be surprised by that as I didn't know that....but I'm not. I have no doubt a lot of high ranking officials of the nazi party made deals on the side near the end of the war.

    Our leaders were not the heroes they tried to paint themselves as. My favourite quote comes from Winston Churchill, apparently the greatest Briton of all time. He is well known for this quote, which he said when he was asked about the possiblity of gassing the kurds:

     
  17. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I did not defend the Taliban. Once again, you are trying to take what I said out of context. If you want me to take your points seriously, I would appreciate if you could not do that.

    You were trying to justify the deaths of countless people in these wars because of what happened at 9/11. I was pointing out that all the attackers were from Saudi Arabia, yet your country and mine, went to war in Iraq.

    Please explain to me how this viewpoint is defending the Taliban? Seriously. I would like to know :)

    Yes...the context of the situation. Israels economy is dependent on aid from the USA. Israel are using USA and British made weapons to attack the Palestinian people. Do you expect the Palestinian people to support the USA when you are arming the people that are killing them?

    The same thing happened in England because America supported the IRA. When the troubles were more serious, there was a lot of anti-American feeling down south because of Americans directly contributing to the IRA.
     
  18. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    I like the quote I use in my work signature better:
    "To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day."
    - Sir Winston Churchill
    I am thinking "gas them" might fall into the category of a thoughtless act?
     
  19. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    She is not very popular amongst working class people in the UK. To such an extent, that when her death was announced, thousands took to the streets and started impromptu parties.

    This is what happened in the centre of Glasgow when her death was announced.

    maggie-thatcher-party.jpg

    She was despised in Scotland for a number of reasons. She used my country as a testing ground for some horrible policies, such as the Poll Tax. Around my area, the denationalisation and closure of Ravenscraig steelworks really hurt the community. That caused huge resentment, though looking back, it was probably necessary to modernise the UK.

    I have mixed feelings about her. I was brought up at a time when the people universally hate her...she was live the devil. I grew up in the 80's, so I would be lying to say I fully understand all the reason people hate her so strongly. I'm sure older members from the UK could explain better than me.

    I think people who were affected by her policies have a right to feel how they want after her death. However, I cannot understand university students taken to the streets to celebrate her death. They are essentially celebrating the death of an old lady who did nothing to them.
     
  20. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Churchill does have some amazing quotes. Also, it is easy for me and others to criticise him for what he said, but it was a very different time.

    My Dad grew up in the 50s, and I know for a fact that racism, bigotry etc was common. So obviously someone born 75 years before grew up with stereotypes of other races.
     

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