Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussions' started by Judah, May 25, 2013.
Here's one made me think of MattCMMA and locutus.
What do you think guys?
Oh, it actually makes me a little sad for Aikido The first technique I'll give to Aikido, even tho' I can just as easily claim it for Judo as a no-gi obi otoshi or a tani otoshi/sukui nage variant (in particular since the mma guy slipped to the inside of the punch and not the outside as the technique was demo'ed). Aikido can't "claim" arm drags, I don't think there is a single grappling art that doesn't utilize them. So the second technique is universal. So for all his research this poor guy has found one Aikido technique in all of MMA, or to make an analogy he found a single bacon bit in the entire buffet of mma. Poor guy sure didn't make a compelling argument for his "opinion" at the end, oh the poor poor fellow...
As a neutral to this conversation, my question is: "What does Steven Seagal coach Anderson Silva and Lyoto Macheda? Is it a more agressive style of Aikido? Cause it works for them". The videoclip is just for fun
It's like saying that front kick that Anderson knocked out Vitor Belfort was an exclusive kick taught by Steven Seagal....I'ts the first kick you learn in most kicking arts
That second technique was an arm drag as performed by the MMA guy, but he was NOT performing it anywhere NEAR the same way as in Aikido. It isn't a drag at all, or it shouldn't be.
As usual, the video OP got the techniques all bollixed up. Hard to compare apples and orangutans.
a lot of what he teaches them is timing and counter striking off other moves, there are clips of him teaching anderson and most of them revolve around that, so not aikido per se
Irimi is not unique to Aikido, and many of the principles behind it are universal to other martial arts. That being said I do enjoy watching a good demo when Irimi is applied correctly and from there multiple techniques strung together, whether it be from an Aikidoka or Jujutsuka.
Right now I'm more Jutsu than Do in case that impression has been missed from any of my previous posts .
definately thats why I alluded to that saying that what Seagal was teaching was
I also like demos where that is applied
I don't like when such questions like 'Aikido effectiveness' are discussed, because they are meaningful. The first thing that you should understand before starting training Aikido is that it is not the most effective martial art. If you don't know that, then you've done a poor research and made wrong choice of martial art. That is because Aikido is a subset of the techniques used in other martial arts. For example, it was funny for me that Bas Rutten, who claimed that Aikido is not good for MMA etc. , in one of his self-defense video tapes, demonstrates a well-known Aikido technique 'kote gaeshi' - but we shouldn't forget that the same is present in many other martial arts.
So yeah, Aikido is "used" in MMA, but only because the same technique is present in that other martial art that the fighter trained.
And also, just to clarify, in that video the second technique is wrong. The Aikido was not the same as the MMA example. Aikido move was tenpi nage/ude kime nage and the MMA fighter had his second arm over the elbow (instead of under the elbow) which is more like the 'rokkyo' technique.
Kote Gaeshi is used to be one of my favorite wristlocks. I remember when I first started training and doing the technique from suwariwaza.
Another point to make is that wrists locks while Uke has gloves and wraps is a bit different and much more difficult to do. It's much easier to go for the elbows or do a shoulder lock. Kote Gaeshi to Ude Garami is a transition I like to make during sparring.
In my dojo we don't have sparrings - it is pure Aikido, so I unofficially make mock fights with some of the guys, in order to analyze some practical aspects. Unfortunately I don't feel it is enough...
About the Kote Gaeshi against gloves: I have seen a video about the Daito-ryu (which can be reffered to as the main inspiration for, or the original source of techniques of Aikido), where they made the Kote Gaeshi without grabbing, but only using your palms as two 'plates' with which you press the opponent's palm on both sides, which is enough to twist the opponent's wrist and make the technique.
This sounds like the wrist lock I describe to students as the "gunsight"* because you keep the meat of the pinky finger (the shuto part of the palm, if my karate terminology is correct) in line with the center mass of your opponent's body. A fail naturally transitions into a gooseneck wrist lock, often with an arm drag type movement. The gunsight is actually easier with gloves on and can still bring the pain when they have wraps on also as the movement needed is minimal.
*much of my Japanese terminology is dropped as virtually no one is pursuing formal promotion in Judo or Jiu Jutsu (in my area, anyway) most either want to become an mma fighter or they just want self-defense training.
1) If we identify 1 or 10 aikido techniques on MMA fight videos... what does that mean? That Aikido is used in MMA? That Aikido is useful in MMA?
2) Does anybody who really practises Aikido care about MMA effectiveness?
3) Sometimes the MINDSET of a Martial Art changes everything. Mindset changes principles. Principles change behaviour. Behaviour and principles change technique.
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Apparently at least some do or there wouldn't be these Aikido in/for mma videos. Aikido's philosophy, training methodology, and mma's No small joint manipulation (basically to cover finger grabs), all make it so that Aikido doesn't translate we'll enough to be useful in mma
The poor poor fellow is me . I am not claiming to be an expert in aikido or martial arts . Just sharing my views. I took aikido in 2012 just for fun . I thought it was cool . Then , when shit hit the fan , i realised that what i was training in was not practical . By this , i mean the school , not the art . I was getting my ass kicked in fights. Well , except a few times where i won . My interest was to know how to make aikido work for me in a fight . Until now , i am working towards that . It seems that many people do not understand aikido or its history . The bugei or martial arts of Japan , were not made for sport or MMA . However , it was from those arts that the " do " started to emerge . Like Judo from Jujutsu , Kendo from Kenjutsu and Aikido from Aikijujutsu . Originally , in these jutsu arts , the stuff taught there are meant for actual warfare . Like in aikido , the funny chops you see are meant to represent sword based attacks or someone having a weapon in their hand . It all makes sense to bring the guy down and disarm him . Even today in the 21st century , where you are working as a bouncer or a security guard , aikido makes sense . The thing i want to bring up is that traditionally , aikido is based on a different context . It is not based on 1 vs 1 unarmed fighting . Most of the stuff are meant to control the attacker and disarm him as quick as possible . Makes perfect sense if you working as a cop , bouncer or security guard . If you want to know how it can work for you in a fight , you need to learn how to fight . Which is what i am doing now . Like what one of my friends told me , he said " Even though aikido is not all about fighting , you need to fight for real to test yourself " . Sadly , many aikido schools have gone away from the hard training . I myself am trying to find a good aikido school . If you are asking me what specific techniques , i can share with you some of the stuff that has worked for me . Tenkan footwork against a takedown , works like a charm . Being on your feet and always moving to slip punches . The concept of irimi . The various throws and joint locks . There you go . I am still training and learning . Thank you.
I think you'll find that there a quite a few members here who understand the history of aikido and it's origination from Daito ryu and Takeda Sokaku. There was a discussion awhile ago about applying resistance training to whatever technique you might be learning and how many aikido schools will just have a compliant uke when performing a technique. This is fine when learning the technique but in a real life situation we all know nothing goes to plan. Anyways from your post you seem to realize this otherwise wouldn't have addressed the need for hard training. Good luck in your journey. Everyone of us here is still learning, and I've had many good discussions here to foster that.
The problem with adapting Aikido for competitive combat is that doing so goes against the original concept was that of non-violence. One man takes an art, modifies it to be safer and fit within his spritual view, and now you want to try to take it back to combat? Maybe you should start with JuJitsu. Or, you could take it a step further, and study an art that was created for combat from that original JuJitsu base, Brazilian JuiJitsu.
Basically, I am just saying, why go in reverse? Study Aikido for the love of the art, and the love of the non-violence mindset. If you want to learn to fight, do MMA. Add in some Judo.
Just my thoughts.
Very good point.
I'm going to expand on what Eric has said. Savate, was originally a street fighting style, the kicking developed because, at the time, using a fist was illegal in France. It was combined with boxing after it's effectiveness was tested and found to be lacking. Now, Savate Boxe Française is a sport with many of it's techniques removed to make it safer as a sport. There is still Savate défense which is for real fighting and includes all strikes, elbows, knees, head butts and open handed strikes as well as grappling and weapons. I do the sport form as that's what I like. If I wanted to do the self defence form I'd learn many more techniques and would possibly be better prepared for actual combat. I still think competition is a good way to pressure test one's skills, but do we want to put ourselves in danger simply for training if we're not soldiers or police officers?
Wherever martial arts have come from, they should be viewed as what they are now and not what they were or made into something they're not/used to be.
Aikido isn't to my taste so I don't do it. I've studied JJJ and didn't really like it so I dropped it. Boxing has served me well in the few altercations I've had.
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