Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Ryannmnzo, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. Void_Karateka

    Void_Karateka Pauper Karateka

    The base principles remain the same. This is universal for martial arts (karate do/jitsu/jutsu, aiki do/jitsu/jutsu etc). Principle underlies application every time. Whether you choose to accept and apply the principle to its fullest and rawest form is the differentiation. It means the difference between a clean looking (steven seagal style) kote gaeshi (not sure I spelled gaeshi correctly for small wrist turn) and a nasty close kote gaeshi with initial advantage made through striking and flowing headbutt leading into stamping on the opponent when they've hit the ground in a mess at your feet.
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  2. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    I would think it would depend upon how far back you want to go in terms of underlying principles.

    I see martial arts as an expanding universe, or perhaps as a Venn diagram ...


    As you get further away from the core principles you begin to lose most of what originally made the art what is was. So, as Aikido is "farther out" than Aikijutsu one should expect that the original principles disappear, or at most only remnants are found. In their place are OTHER principles that may or may not have similarities to the base art.

    And a new Venn diagram is drawn.
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  3. Void_Karateka

    Void_Karateka Pauper Karateka

    That is a much better explanation than mine!

    In fact thinking about it, Aikido is a fantastic example of this. aikido's guiding principles do dictate how and why techniques are taught. All of it comes from one mans teachings (Morihei Ueshiba). Because of his own moral standing (and if you believe it his golden shower of light revelation one day) then whatever he knew or applied became something completely removed from that pure martially intended (that kill aspect) art.
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  4. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    You said 'golden shower':ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    Sorry......I'll go and grow up now.:troll:
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  5. Aaron

    Aaron Shadow Warrior

    I think that's one of best ways I have seen anyone put a jutsu vs do explanation:)

    Just wondering what you classify as "Art E"? Lol
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  6. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Oh, probably one of those mail-order "Super-Charged Karate/Judo Course" offerings, or maybe something you can find at your friendly local McDojo. :D

    And probably at least 50% of what you see advertised as "Instructional Videos" on YouTube.
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  7. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    I'm right next to you ... :shy:
  8. Void_Karateka

    Void_Karateka Pauper Karateka

    Hehe, golden shower.
  9. john2054

    john2054 Nearly graduate

    Hi Sifuphil,

    I just saw that Venn diagram and in case you are referring to Aiki do as that watered down piece of piss that most sport model martial arts commonly associate themselves with now a days, I beg you have a little more respect okay? Maybe you have never been to an Aikido dojang? Clearly you have never read any of O'sensei's or the Aiki dos fraternitys worth of writings, because if you had it would give you some knowledge that killing (the centre of your venn) is clearly so far out from what we train in and for, in martial arts, to seem that this is worthless. In Aikido we train in waza (basic techniques), and don't have fights. This is so that no one gets hurt, okay>?

  10. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    Sorry John, but historically speaking, martial arts have been categorically for the purpose of killing. Only a finite portion of those over the past millennia and a half of recorded MA history have trained for the purpose of seeking non-violence in their life. This day and age is without doubt the single greatest period in history where humanity has by and large, had the luxury of indulging in training for sport or fitness, inner harmony, etc and not for true self defence in the face of war and or battle.
    Strictly speaking, the only reason O'sensei' was able to indulge in creating his 'new' style was due to the efforts of the majority that fought and died to liberate Japan and bring about the Meiji Restoration, ending the Tokugawa era.
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  11. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky


    Dave has already hit upon most of the points that would be contained in any reply I would make to your assertions.

    Stating that "in Aikido we ... don't have fights" is in my belief an inane statement - surely you do not speak for every Aikidoka in the world, nor even for every one in your dojo. ("Dojang", by the way, is a Korean, not Japanese, term)

    As for not hanging out in them long enough - I earned my Fuku-Shidoin certificate long ago, so THAT statement is invalid as well.

    Kissomaru Ueshiba, O-Sensei's son, gave Aiki-ki its characteristic pacifistic nature, a philosophy at odds with many of O-Sensei's other students. Basically he applied his own brand of thinking onto his father's style.

    Finally, the fact that certain schools of Aikido still do not engage in competitions is a sign that old ideas die slowly. Groups such as the Tomiki Aikido International Network are bringing Aikido into a new age, where the idea of pacifism in what is supposedly a martial art is slowly - and rightfully - being burned away. If Aikido truly wants to be seen as a purely spiritual pursuit, then I say let it divest itself of the name "martial art" and let it join the ranks of yoga and whirling dervishes.
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  12. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    Yes and it may have been a little too effective.
  13. john2054

    john2054 Nearly graduate

    Hi Sifu phil and others. I will take a deep breath and be measured in my reply. Aikido is not a 'martial' art as such, but it was Ueshiba o-sensei himself who on more than one occasion declared it true 'budo' the way of the warrior.

    Phil, good for you if you have graded in Aikido. So you believe in competitions do you? Well guess what i have recently joined up to a local judo school and we do randori in there. Just that is not the way my senseis conduct aiki class, and it is not the way they were taught neither. True the old wood burns quicker because it is dry and brittle somewhat, but also aren't the oldest antiques be they of oak or mahogany, that much greater than their balsterwood equivalents?

    Also in quick rely to dave's 'enlightenment', well sure people did die across the ages in the japanese civil wars, but not half as many as died in the second great war. At which point japan was handed it's pride back to it on a platter, and forced to eat from the plate of redemption for a good many years. Not to mention with the martial arts being completely dismembered during this period. The fact that Aikido was able to survive this period and survive so well, was largely due to the memory and training of the founder in various earlier japanese jujitsu schools etc., and he brought these together in his aiki form. But anyone who believes that the aiki is a do of violence needs to get their head examined, not to mention and teaching credentials they may allude to possess in this style!
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  14. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Hi John!

    If you're talking about the differences between budo and bujutsu then yes, Aikido could be seen as being true budo. But if, like hundreds of thousands of other martial artists, you see budo as a "martial way", then of necessity Aikido must fit into that definition.

    Many groups and individuals have taken Taijiquan - definitely a martial art - and turned it into a soft, spineless New Age dance. Does that stop Taijiquan from being a martial art? Hardly.

    I think you might have misunderstood my intent, for which I totally blame my poor writing skills. When I spoke of "fighting" in response to your post I meant non-sanctioned fighting among the students - arguments, disputes, name-calling, etc. I didn't mean tournament fighting - given the tournament-fighting scene over the last few decades I am NOT in favor of competitions.

    As for wood and antiques - dryness creates brittleness and flammability in both. I hardly see the worth of something dry and brittle, just because it's old. If it has inherent value - in the case of a martial artist, experience and honor - then yes, that's a good thing.

    Age alone does not bestow worth.

    Aikido was not known as such until 1942, so I don't think it is a matter of it "surviving" the war years - it was still in its infancy. In fact, until that year it was known as Aikibudo or Aikinomichi.

    I will repeat my earlier observation that any style that disavows itself of violence does not deserve the name "martial art". Since O-sensei's path took him into new religions and he chose only the softest of physical techniques from the hard arts he had studied, placing emphasis instead upon spirituality and self-development, then let us re-classify Aikido as a philosophy or religion that employs physical exercise, much like Yoga.
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  15. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Again it seems Aikidoka want to have it both ways. They don't have a "martial" art when it comes to "Show me..." for sparring, competition, or combat. It all has to be compliant choreography. But somehow they are able to define the "true" martial way all should follow. Ueshiba was criticized by his peers and contemporaries that his art was becoming watered-down, so to speak. Much of that was due to the influence of his religious advisor, but all "blame" doesn't fall there - it's easier to influence a priveleged individual who lived an easy life. Ueshiba's teacher (known as a savage instructor) lived the life of a soldier and warrior and never lost his edge, he had empirical knowledge of the world and the application of martial arts. So hearing from Ueshiba about "true" budo carries about as much weight as if Paris Hilton decided to define it.
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  16. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Paris Hilton on martial arts -

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  17. john2054

    john2054 Nearly graduate

    RJ Clark, both me and sifu phil (if his title is worth its weight) would beg to differ with your hastily pulled together definition. Aikido is not a dance, although it may appear that way to someone who has never been hit by it. Aikido is not an easy way out, although to someone who has only ever spent their times beating on others, it may appear this way. We do not believe in a way of peace, although harmony is necessary for music, and without music your DJ set is going to suck. And our violence includes punishment, both Karmic and necessary, but then someone who is always so far high up on their high horse will never have the chance to sniff the ground, let alone feel grounded.

    Aikido is about a lot more than just what the O'Sensei gave us, meaning that it has come quite a long way since then. But for anyone who ever wants to grade in this discipline, a little background history wouldn't go amiss. He gave us a lot. But god gives us more. Ueshiba believed in Gods. I don't. However I am not an atheist, so by definition I guess that makes me a lot closer to his spiritual definition than you will ever be, okay?
  18. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    My hastily pulled together definition of what? Aikido as compliant choreography or the common translation of budo as martial way?
    As for this, just what are you trying to convey here? It looks as if you got lost in your owns metaphors/analogies and imagery and forgot to make a valid point on anything.
    What progress has Aikido made or where is Aikido considered progressive? In particular for Aikido there appears to be an inherent, borderline obstinate, pride in preservation and lack of evolution. So explain this, please.
    That is quite okay with me, thanks for asking:LOL:. Again, I would rather hear from Ueshiba's teacher who had empiricism on his side rather than philosophy & mysticism.
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  19. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    My wife was behind her in line at Trader Joe's recently. Paris got into some altercation with some Aikido master in line in front of her and kicked his ass.

    Okay, I added that last part. But it isn't beyond the realm of possibility.
  20. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Now if you had said "an MMA champion" I would have totally believed you. :sneaky:
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