Changes.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussions' started by Ian White, May 15, 2013.

  1. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Well said, DeeD!

    I would only add that training against UN-trained opponents might be just as important. With fellow martial artists we sort of know what to expect in a general way; with an untrained, crazy, anything-goes type of opponent you find out if your art REALLY works.

    I found this out only after years of sparring with other trained fighters. Spar with a Taiji guy - I knew what to expect. With a Taekwondo guy - yep, I knew what was coming. Judo - same thing.

    But my first match-up as a bouncer with a crazy guy really showed me the holes in my techniques and in my tactics. This guy did stuff that no sane person would do, and for him it worked because he caught me off-guard; I was still in the "dojo-mind".
     
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  2. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    I definitely come down on the "martial" side of of martial arts and am quite critical of things like Kata. That said, I don't think asking "can she fight" is a particularly appropriate question for a 6 year old. At that age, and indeed for several years to come, mastering technique is far more important than anything else.

    Totally agree with this. Every BJJ practitioner knows that your biggest chance of injury in training is against a white belt rolling for the first time.
     
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  3. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Great point and also something that is only paid lip service to in the dojo. Too often the "street" simulations are set up in a comfortable ready?-set-OK, we're going to start now-aaaaand defend yourself! manner which doesn't reflect the ultra aggro real world assault. Even harder to keep it relatively safe when realistically executing those scenarios. But if martial arts were easy they'd all be called Tai ji - I kiiid, I kiid! ;)
     
  4. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Oh SNAP!!!!
     
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  5. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    very good point (y)
     
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  6. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    I agree bit of a strange remark for a 6 year old
     
  7. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I have the opposite viewpoint to you. I feel that there are many people who are proficient at kata yet they would get beat up if they tried to fight someone.

    The best way to self defense is to become a better fighter. I'd more intimated of someone who spends most of his time sparring than someone who spends all day doing kata and does 30 minutes sparring a week.

    I have yet to see anyone use kata in a real fight. I know I wouldn't use it. Real fighting is more fluid.

    So for me, the fact that more people want to learn how to fight is a good thing.
     
  8. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I have the opposite viewpoint to you. I feel that there are many people who are proficient at kata yet they would get beat up if they tried to fight someone.

    The best way to self defense is to become a better fighter. I'd more intimated of someone who spends most of his time sparring than someone who spends all day doing kata and does 30 minutes sparring a week.

    Take Chloe Bruce for example. Her kata is amazing...though in most respects she can be considered more of a gymnast than a fighter.



    I have yet to see anyone use kata in a real fight. I know I wouldn't use it. Real fighting is more fluid.

    So for me, the fact that more people want to learn how to fight is a good thing.
     
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  9. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    No one talks about 1st grade fight club! :mad:


    I have one word... stupid.

    Your retort should have been... "She is 6, you idiot."
    maybe: "Hell, put a spiked club in her hand... *second voice* "where did Snake Plissken go? Get him back in here!"

    Or something nicer... but retain the sarcasm.
     
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  10. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Reminds me of this sitcom... from a few years back... here is the last third of that episode...
     
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  11. Locutus

    Locutus Your fight is futile, my hands are pounding you!

    I wouldn't call what she did a kata. A kata is supposed to be a fight against imaginary opponents. Not some moves strung together because they look pretty, although she does look very pretty.
     
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  12. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    Yeah the video I showed is more of a dance, though she has won countless competitions for performing Taekwondo patterns. I have nothing but respect for what she can do....but how long would she last against a girl who trained muay thai for 6 months?
     
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  13. Locutus

    Locutus Your fight is futile, my hands are pounding you!

    If I were to judge solely on what that clip shows I would say no chance :) I would like to believe that there is a deeper side to her skills.
     
  14. Ian White

    Ian White Samurai

    the problem is they just want to fight.
    to be a martial artist you need to practice all the skills.

    Kata is a way of using all your skills in a combined exercise. movement, stances.power focus concentration;
    these all make you a better fighter
     
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  15. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I remember this being an issue when I did JJJ, the instructors would say, "this is how someone will attack you on the street" and demonstrate a wide right hook whilst stepping from orthodox to southpaw. When I asked how the same technique would work against a jab, a cross or even a right hook that the attacker didn't step forward for. I was told either "most people are right handed" or "this technique doesn't work for straight punches" or "if your opponent doesn't step forward his feet won't be in the right position for you to throw him" so we were all basically being taught a multitude of techniques which would only work against one unrealistic attack. I remember trying to show off to friends who didn't know why they had to throw just one specific attack and they'd sometimes do 2 hooks! Or even throw a left first! Cheating bastards!

    As for the op if she's good at forms she's good at forms. If she likes it good. I don't think anyone can be expected to fight at that age. Sparring wouldn't hurt her as long as its not against an unreasonably large opponent but there are many reasons people train, not everyone is interested in fighting or even self defence.
    I have to disagree that martial arts require basics, forms and sparring. It's your three legged stool analogy I'm disagreeing with here. Certainly every system has basic techniques which need to be practised and mastered and I'd agree that sparring is essential as well, it's essentially practising the techniques that have been learnt. But forms? No, sorry I can't agree that practising a set of pre arranged movements is necessary for a system to work. There are so many martial arts which gave no kata/forms or whatever you want to call them and they don't fall down.
     
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  16. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    They better learn how to attack you "correctly" if they want to train next time! haha! Yeah, from day one in TMAs I bristled about the set piece singular attack & defend scenarios since I started with combat sports and empirical technique studies (read that as street application of techniques;)). Instructors always have a bag full of weak reasons explaining/justifying utilizing this training method but it boils down to training in a comfort zone that has little to do with the reality of combat or self defense. One great quote about realistic training is from Flavius Josephus on the Roman legionnaires "Their training is bloodless combat, and their combat is bloody training."
     
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  17. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    The interesting thing is... how you define the word "fighting."
    Competition full contact?
    Or real life - life threatening.
    Many life experienced credible sources consider kata/forms are one of the best applications for real life... as you drive full force and speed in all (unlimited) movements that are often prevented in competition "fighting." E.g. - operant conditioning
    This does require an appropriate mental focus of "envisioning." The training of form patterns simply ingrain strike/grab/move sequences...
    Of course, you aren't getting hit at the same time. And how you react to that can be trained also.
    They both have a clear application... but each side of the fence tends to belittle the other.
     
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  18. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I remember seeing Chloe at a co petition in '99 her technique was amazing, my only criticism is she never really does full round kicks when she's multiple kicking, her leg never comes close to extension until the last kick. I've been told she can fight yet I've never seen her and the one time I've seen her hitting a bag she SEEMED to have no power. However she may not have been trying, and without her actually hitting me I wouldn't like to make a definite statement on that. I'd agrees he's more of a gymnast than a fighter but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I feel it's the name "martial arts" that is the problem. In German it's "kampf sport" which translates as "fight sport" this makes it easier to categorise IMO, it's not for self defence, that's do etching else, it's not gymnastics or dance it's fighting for sport. :D lumping anything and everything which deals with combat or the choreographic illusion of combat under the title "martial arts" is what causes all these arguments IMO. As Phil suggested, maybe a grading system for "martial arts" is required. Savate, has three different types, there's Savate forme which is like kata/aerobics/dance using Savate boxing techniques. There's Savate boxe which is the sport and there's Savate dans la rue which is for self defence, it's not just kicking and punching, it includes wrist twisting, other joint locking, grappling and weapons as well. Hell they have techniques for fighting with almost any improvised weapon you can think of from umbrellas to chairs. But all three types aren't taught at the same time in the same class and not every student is required to do all three, you choose what you want, dance, sport fighting or self defence. Am I suggesting ALL martial arts be separated the same way? No but I just get annoyed when eastern TMAs insist that all three are REQUIRED or the system falls down like a stool with a leg missing.
     
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  19. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I disagree, I'm a better fighter since I started practising fighting more and quit katas. None of the forms I learnt in TKD ever helped me when I was a bouncer, the most useful thing I ever learnt for that was the pushing hands a friend who did taiji taught me.
     
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  20. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Broadly defining kata to allow it to encompass all drills would lend legitimacy to what kata is commonly known for now which is lengthy, most often complex (read that as not-gonna-happen-in-a-fight), rote memorization of techniques. I remember debating on BBF and correlating discussions with other martial artists about boxing drills being/not being kata. This also applies to police and military training, R2D2s (ritualized, rehearsed, disciplined drills), etc. One of the biggest differences is the immediate application of these drills in a dynamic situation. Do a slipping drill for boxing and you apply it later that session when sparring, SWAT/Military guys who drill stacking and room clearance roll in and neutralize a building full of dirtbags with no good guy casualties, etc. As for kata
     
  21. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Once again... maybe my school is very different...
    But, we train all the time to pull short block/strike/kick/grab/sweep/etc sequences from multiple forms (kata/pumse).
    So, once my opponent's movement/strike attempt fits a sequence... I kick in that "engram" instantly.
    To your analogy... it is the same as a slipping drill.
     
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