Childrens/ Jr. Black Belt

Discussion in 'The Instructors Room' started by MegaPunch, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    There are a lot of Karate schools that award children black belts. Just go to the tournaments to see and hear them! Anyone who has a Dan ranking above 5th Dan is usually given it because of politics (how many students received black belts, how many schools and students they have, what papers or books written...etc). Anyone who claims rank above 9th usually full of it! There are only so many techniques you can learn. In today's society children or adults want to see that achievement and usually drop out if they don't see it. I started martial arts at eleven years old and with our school, testing every six months, I was a green belt after three years. No one who started class when I did was still around after three years. I continued to train without stopping and earn my Black Belt (Tang Soo Do) at seventeen years old. I moved around often because my father was in the military and started training in other arts, and getting 1st Dan is several arts. I started TaeKwonDo in Korea at thirty years old and have been training ever since, I'm 5th Dan in TaeKwonDo. In Korea we trained six nights a week and four hours a night, getting Black Black in two years. Most people would quit if it takes that long unless you really love it! I do love it!!! Master Fahy
  2. Sabomnim Dan

    Sabomnim Dan Disciple

    I encounter this mentality at work all the time. I joined the police at 23 and have now been doing that job 9 years. Recently I have been performing the duties of a Sergeant in preparation for promotion. This is because I have demonstrated a broad knowledge of the job and its application as well as strategic planning, people management and other leadership qualities. Because of my position I am required to task, guide, lead and even reprimand new Constables. Many of these Constables, because of mid-life career changes are old enough to have kids older than me. Does that mean they shouldn't be able to learn from me because I'm young and don't have decades of experience? Of course not: I have the skills to teach, they must have the attitude to learn.

    The same applies to Martial Arts.
    Just as being a teacher is a mindset, so too is being a student.
    Sneaker and Master Fahy like this.
  3. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    Sabomnim Dan I agree with you on your last post! I have taught classes to students while teaching for another Master and now some of them out rank me (Go Figure)! They have the same belt ranking or higher but, they know so very little compared to me (I have 43 years experience with over 30 years teaching and they have been training about 15 years). I asked them tell me the name of a certain technique and they tell me something totally wrong! They can't even tell me the english name let alone the korean name. The reason is that they never learned what it was called and their Master is Korean! I lived in Korea for 4.5 years and asked many questions of my Master Instructor! You will never know unless you ask! Master Fahy
    Aaron and Sabomnim Dan like this.
  4. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    Again I see Korean arts acknowledging Kids grades as full grades. I have no qualms giving a 16 year old a full grade but won't give it to a younger student.
    A black belt does not guarantee the person will be a good teacher the same as a good fighter doesn't guarantee it either.
    There is definately a divide between semi&non contact styles and full contact knockdown
  5. Bad Karma

    Bad Karma Warrior Monk

    You don't GET a black belt. You become one. I don't think of promoting until at least 16. I make this clear from the get go. I don't have a "black belt club". I promise nothing. Maximum effort, maximum sweat.
    Sneaker, Aaron and Kuyaken like this.
  6. daniel Mccullough

    daniel Mccullough Advanced beginner

    I got a full black belt under the age of 10 while most of my friends got it at 12. It depends on the kid and wether or not you think they're ready for a full black belt. I don't believe in junior black belts because that makes it sound like a lesser title. If you get a black belt that means you earned it. If you don't think they're ready than don't give them a black belt. Please think more of their maturity level and ability instead of age. I'm probably making a lot of other instructors mad with this comment but just consider it.
    Sneaker likes this.
  7. daniel Mccullough

    daniel Mccullough Advanced beginner

    I understand what you're saying but age doesn't always have something to do with it. I believe you should get a full black belt when your instructor thinks you've earned it.
  8. Sneaker

    Sneaker Warrior Monk

    Thank you !
  9. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    No child that receives a black belt in martial arts at 10 or 12 years of age can consider to be able to beat a black belt of adult age! Physically or mentally, a 10 or 12 year old "CAN NOT", match with an adult say 20 or above! Therefore, they should "NOT" be a what your calling a full black belt! I'm all for the JR. black belt. Some children are mature for their age but, it's not the maturity level at question here. Again, physically or mentally they are not an adult. I have three children of my own who received their Jr. black belt at that age as well.... They could not compete with an adult at that age nor can other children expect to compete so why give them as you call it (full) black belt? Master Fahy
    Aaron, DeeD, Kuyaken and 1 other person like this.
  10. Bad Karma

    Bad Karma Warrior Monk

    I'm not mad at all. I do, however, think that a 10 year old doesn't know what end is up yet. Time breeds maturity. Not a belt.
  11. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    but in saying that do u feel that your level at 10 is worthy of a black belt, not taking anything away from you at all, you know what you had to do to achieve this im just thinking a 10 year old would NEVER be able to compete with any of the adult black belts in our system, interesting
    RJ Clark likes this.
  12. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Perhaps if a system is low to no contact and places most of it's merit in the performance of kata or techniques on compliant ukes, then a 10-12 year old can memorize that catalogue of choreography to "earn" their black belt. Let's just say the average adult male is the benchmark for being capable of dealing with in a self defense situation. That same average guy even as a neophyte student would have to scale down his intensity when training/sparring/rolling with some 10-12 year old kid in the relatively safe dojo environment. Absolutely forget about anything near to full-contact.
    Then let's look at instruction. How effective is this kid going to be instructing a women's self defense class that has mature elements central to the training that are well beyond his realm of experience or knowledge? Nope, sorry there shouldn't be any 10-12 year old "full" black belts running around. Even 16 is pushing the limits and should be the rare exception rather than the standard. I'll err on the side of caution and leave the minimum age at 18, no matter how mature and outstanding I think the person is who isn't yet 18...
    Kuyaken, Alice Okasan and DeeD like this.
  13. Sneaker

    Sneaker Warrior Monk

    I will like to call this full black belt to either child or adult based on :

    1) Attitude
    2) Accuracy movements (entirely white belt to black belt )
    3) Knowledge from white belt to last underbelt/blackbelt
    4) Very supportive/volunteer
    5) This might be the hardest of all to pass the black belt testing : can you defend/protect yourself and outsmart attacker's plans from harm into safety zone ?
    Here is an idea :
    (yes, regular and handicap/disability [they can get to safety, remaining calm to call 911]) regardless what the answer is (yes, no and I don't know) ... unexpected situation scene with few attackers begins right after the question without telling them. [only 1, 2, or 3 students in a unexpected situation scene AT A TIME testing]
    I don't mind put on overall protection uniform and setup obstacles and see if a child(ren) or an adult(s) can respond it very well by unexpected situation without panic and stay outsmart.

    if successful responding to unexpected situation immediately ... PASSED !

    another way to earn the belts unexpected is to give them when they are ready for next belt that will give them great feeling, appreciate and causing to increase the motivation driven by themselves
  14. Sneaker

    Sneaker Warrior Monk

    only if excellent instructors & positive students in it

    I agreed and also manage to how to escape and get into safety zone (get help, phone to call someone or 911)

    this Karate Black belt person will makes him/herself looks bad and even worse making the dojo looks like a defective unsuccessful (probably mcdojo) karate school ... still implausible ....

    kinda like a college degree, if stop for a 5 years, then kinda long way to catch up to get up to speed of that degree to get a job back or another job ...

    Flipping burger is not a blackbelt, except if you own that burger place and succeed :)
    Kuyaken and Eric Dufurrena like this.
  15. Animefreak1983

    Animefreak1983 Initiate

    I disagree with giving children a black belt . I've seen a few kids who get them and get into trouble because they ether brag or other kids find out and want to prove something .
    Rugratzz likes this.
  16. MadoreGojuRyu

    MadoreGojuRyu Master

    I haven't had a student reach that rank yet. But I personally wouldn't award anyone under 17 a black belt, I do a jr. black belt mind set though. I wouldn't have them called sensei either. If they continue to train diligently and reach 17 I would award them either their 1st or 2nd depending on how far they have progressed when they hit that age.
  17. Rugratzz

    Rugratzz Initiate

    in our club juniors do not get full Black belts until they are 17. The pandas under 10 can get a panda bb but it really is just another belt. when they move up to the youth class 10 til 16 they assessed and awarded a grade. youths can only get to a 1st cup until they are 17 then they can go for their bb.

  18. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    Both of you have solid points.
    For the purist, technique and training, just to train is enough.
    And for the business person, bodies = capital.
    Personally, my experience has been to way you communicate to the students & parents.
    Q: "Why should I have Billy come here, if you don't 'guarantee' a Blackbelt? The school closer to my house says they can get Billy a Blackbelt in 3 years or less."
    A: "It's a matter of Quality. Martial Arts schools are NOT created equal. A school that guarantees blackbelts to it's students, will not have you (your child's) best interest in mind. They are just happy to Take your Money. I personally don't care if Billy is a White Belt for 10 years. As long as Billy is training to perfect his technique. In 10 years every Blackbelt from every McDojo in the world will think he is a blackbelt and a better one than they are. It's a matter of taking the time to perfect one's technique that is the most important thing a Martial Artist can do. It's the training that makes people safer, walking down the street. NOT the Rank. Other schools can promise you "Blackbelts". We can promise you Quality and Peace of Mind. If you had the chance. Would you prefer to drive a broken down Ford Escort or a brand new Ferrari or Rolls Royce?"
    Sabomnim Dan and Kuyaken like this.
  19. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    I had to borrow that for my Page and website, OSU
    Master of Nothing likes this.
  20. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    Coolness! (y)
    Kuyaken likes this.

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