Freedom of speech or antagonism for the sake of it?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Judah, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    A French newspaper has, according to an article from ABC news, printed a depiction of the Muslim prophet Muhammad.

    I'm sure we all remember the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy of 2005 which lead to some violent riots and over 100 reported deaths.

  3. KungFuBoojBJJ

    KungFuBoojBJJ Disciple

    I think it's both really - somebody using freedom of speech to antagonise!

    The typical response we see from muslim countries though as usual is a little childish really - throwing a tantrum and people being killed, whether it's because of a crap film, a cartoon or any other reason, the response is just way over the top. Of course the US can be pretty bad at responding to criticism/disagreements at times as well (still got those "Freedom" fries?? :D ) - but obviously not to the same extent.

    The fact is the same muslims who are up in arms over such cartoons, films, books are also quite critical themselves of other religions, but then hide behind their childish tantrums when a similar criticism is applied to their own religion.

    I believe you should be able to state whatever you believe about another religion without fear of death threats as a response - if people don't agree with your beliefs, so be it, everybody is entitled to an opinion, it's no reason to be killing people! And if you are not willing to be criticized, don't ask or don't listen to other people's opinions - bury your head in the sand, put your fingers in your ears and hum loudly or something, do whatever it takes to convince yourself that you are right and everybody else is wrong, if you feel really upset break something with a hammer! But this mass riots, killings and insanity over a film/cartoon/book - if you really believe in a god, isn't it his job to judge, not yours?

    I'll leave you with a Homer Simpson quote, feel free to be offended, I don't care :p

    "I’m not normally a praying man, but if you’re up there, please save me, Superman"
    Dave76, SifuPhil and Judah like this.
  4. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Best Simpsons quote ever!
  5. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Yes I get exactly what you're saying. A bit of common sense is in order. I feel similar, if you wanna be taken seriously, stop acting like a petulant child


  6. David Manson

    David Manson Disciple

    The muslim community needs to lighten up. Is it in their religion that they can't have a since of humor? I have meet some in my travels and none of them had a since of humor what so ever. Your lives would be so much better if you would just take a step back, see whats funny in the world and have a good laugh , even at yourselves, once in a while. It's no wonder that some of them go to the "dark side" and become suicide bombers. Hell, if I couldn't laugh I would want to blow myself up too. So quit being so pissed off all the time. Listen to a joke. Learn to tell a joke. Just have a good laugh and get over it. By the way, if you want to call me INFIDEL, thats cool, I will wear it proudly.
    SifuPhil likes this.
  7. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I've known many Muslims with a sense of humour, just not regarding religion. Interestingly enough a guy I used to know from Afghanistan told me its part of Islam to respect the culture and beliefs of countries they visit, in short "when in Rome..." yet I've known very few in the UK who don't enforce their cultural beliefs. My ex-wife who was Hindu worked in a part of town teaming with Muslims, she felt she had to dress in traditional Hindu attire to prevent them from verbally abusing her because she wasn't covering like a Muslim woman because she "looked" as though she were Muslim. Many of her Muslim co workers who didn't want to wear a burka did so to avoid this same abuse... I personally find it offensive that in a supposed "FREE" country these alien values are being forced on people who don't want to follow them just be aide of the way they look.
    SifuPhil likes this.
  8. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    The Scorpion and the Frog

    One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
    The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
    Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
    "Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
    "Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to killme?" asked the frog hesitantly.
    "Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
    Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
    "This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
    "Alright do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
    "Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
    So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
    Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
    "You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
    The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
    "I could not help myself. It is my nature."
    Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
    Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...
    SifuPhil likes this.
  9. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Technically the crime for apostasy is death, meaning anyone who is Muslim and either converts or becomes Athiest should be put to death. This is extended by some to include all non-believers.

    It's not just Islam, check out northern Ireland; Catholics vs Protestants, Sri Lanka; Buddhists vs Hindus.... However Muslims do seem to get in the news more, maybe it's because they make such a fuss? In the UK Sikhs ate allowed to ride motorcycles without a helmet if they have a turban. This came about because British Sikhs rioted and protested when they were told to obey the law and wear helmets like everyone else. Backing down and making concessions for one minority group means similar concessions have to be made for other minority groups yet the majority don't have any special concessions made... That would be racist.
  10. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    You've seen "the Crying Game" too huh?
  11. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    Mmmm...we have two muslims at my work. One is from Bosnia and is so layed back you'd never know he was muslim. The other is from Somalia and is hardline muslim. They don't get all. The second one, Momin, stops work every 3hrs to pray, which usually takes him about 10 - 15 min. Not so bad you say? On a 12hr shift our contracts entitle us to two 20min breaks.... that's it! But dispite all of the workers voicing their dislike, Momin continues to be allowed to take a 20min break and then go do his prayers for another 15mins. With five 15min breaks each shift and two 20min breaks he's allowed over 2hrs of non work time..... How can that be fair we, the other workers ask? Our bosses response is quite literally this...." I'm not going there!"
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  12. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

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  13. Ben

    Ben Master

    I came from a catholic school and as part of our Religious Education in year 11, we had to study other faiths. Judaism, Muslim etc etc. We found out that the Muslim religion is very peaceful. They forbid violence based on colour, race or creed and especially against other religions. Yet we have thousands of extremists rioting and attempting to damage people because of something which really shouldn't be that offensive. If you don't want your prophet portrayed as a violent idiot, why would you act like a violent idiot to prove people wrong?
    Judah likes this.
  14. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Excellent post Ben! You make an excellent point, it's my opinion that Islam is influenced more by the cultures in which it's practiced than it influences the culture, otherwise all Muslims would be the same, but they're not, Islam is different in each country it's practiced in.

    Oh and Christians are no better, 400+ years ago they were killing in the name of Jesus .. Just so we know I'm impartial...
    Ben likes this.
  15. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

  16. Ben

    Ben Master

    This is all true. However I think that this conversation and this topic however is going out of the borders of the forum rules.
  17. Ben

    Ben Master

    At my house we openly discuss religion and politics. My father is an Anglican minister doing a degree in Theology and on the path to being ordained into the priesthood. We are all open minded people and discuss our views openly and respectfully. I save the Martial Arts for the people who I know will appreciate it. And I take great joy in bringing obnoxious little shits at my club back down to earth. Seriously when a person is a level higher then you, and they don't progress through the grading but you do, the shit you cop is amazing :p
  18. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    About the Christians, yes it was 400+ years ago and that my friend is a long freaking time. It was a different time with different rules. The "troubles" in Northern Ireland was more than just religion. It had to do with England controlling Ireland and protestants vs. catholics was a part of this.

    Islam was spread by the sword. That's what they did. They conquered Spain in 900 AD and held most of it until 1492. They got as close as the gates of Vienna and all of North Africa was taken by force. The Spaniards and other Catholic countries defeated them at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 and thus kept them from controlling the Mediterranean Sea. They also took over Toulon in France in 1545.

    We better wake up because this is just the start.....
  19. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    Nah...they were all just as bad as each other. Cristians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, Buddists, etc...they've all been guilty of doing horrific things at one time or another. The biggest problem I find is people don't let go of the past and blame the sins of the father so to speak.

    And got stopped coming into Europe from the east by none other than 'Dracula' - Vlad the Impaler

    War with the Ottomans
    In 1459, Pope Pius II called for a new crusade against the Ottomans, at the Congress of Mantua. In this crusade, the main role was to be played by Matthias Corvinus, son of John Hunyadi (János Hunyadi), the King of Hungary. To this effect, Matthias Corvinus received from the Pope 40,000 golden coins, an amount that was thought to be enough to gather an army of 12,000 men and purchase 10 Danube warships. In this context, Vlad allied himself with Matthias Corvinus, with the hope of keeping the Ottomans out of the country (Wallachia was claimed as a part of the Ottoman Empire by Sultan Mehmed II).
    Vlad the Impaler and the Turkish Envoys. Painting by Theodor Aman.
    Later that year, in 1459, Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II sent envoys to Vlad to urge him to pay a delayed Jizya (tax on non-Muslims) of 10,000 ducats and 500 recruits into the Ottoman forces. Vlad refused, because if he had paid the 'tribute', as the tax was called at the time, it would have meant a public acceptance of Wallachia as part of the Ottoman Empire. Vlad, just like most of his predecessors and successors, had as a primary goal to keep Wallachia as independent as possible. Vlad had the Turkish envoys killed on the pretext that they had refused to raise their "hats" to him, by nailing their turbans to their heads.
    Meanwhile, the Sultan received intelligence reports that revealed Vlad's domination of the Danube.[15] He sent the Bey of Nicopolis, Hamza Pasha, to make peace and, if necessary, eliminate Vlad III.[15]
    Vlad Țepeș planned to set an ambush. Hamza Pasha, the Bey of Nicopolis, brought with him 1000 cavalry and when passing through a narrow pass north of Giurgiu, Vlad launched a surprise attack. The Wallachians had the Turks surrounded and defeated. The Turks' plans were thwarted and almost all of them caught and impaled, with Hamza Pasha impaled on the highest stake to show his rank.[15]
    In the winter of 1462, Vlad crossed the Danube and devastated the entire Bulgarian land in the area between Serbia and the Black Sea. Disguising himself as a Turkish Sipahi, he infiltrated and destroyed Ottoman camps. In a letter to Corvinus dated 2 February, he wrote:
    Transylvanian Saxon engraving from 1462 depicting Vlad Țepeș
    A woodcut depicting Vlad Țepeș published in Nuremberg in 1488 on the title page of the pamphlet Die geschicht dracole waide.
    I have killed peasants men and women, old and young, who lived at Oblucitza and Novoselo, where the Danube flows into the sea, up to Rahova, which is located near Chilia, from the lower Danube up to such places as Samovit and Ghighen. We killed 23,884 Turks without counting those whom we burned in homes or the Turks whose heads were cut by our soldiers...Thus, your highness, you must know that I have broken the peace with him (Sultan Mehmed II).[13][16]
    In response to this, Sultan Mehmed II raised an army of around 60,000 troops and 30,000 irregulars,[17] and in spring of 1462 headed towards Wallachia. Commanding at best only 30,000 to 40,000 men (depending of the source),[citation needed] Vlad was unable to stop the Ottomans from crossing the Danube at June 4, 1462 and entering Wallachia. He constantly organized small attacks and ambushes on the Turks, such as The Night Attack when 15,000 Turks were killed.[2] This infuriated Mehmed II, who then crossed the Danube. With the exception of some Turkish references all the other chronicles at the time that mention the 1462 campaign state that the Sultan was defeated.[citation needed] Apparently, the Turks retreated in such a hurry that by July 11, 1462 the Sultan was already in Adrianopolis.[citation needed]. According to the Byzantine historian Chalcocondil[citation needed], Radu, brother of Vlad III and ingratiate of the Sultan, was left behind in Targoviste with the hope that he would be able to gather an anti-Vlad clique that would ultimately get rid of Vlad as Voivode of Wallachia and crown Radu as the new puppet ruler.
    Vlad the Impaler's attack was celebrated by the Saxon cities of Transylvania, the Italian states and the Pope. A Venetian envoy, upon hearing about the news at the court of Corvinus on 4 March, expressed great joy and said that the whole of Christianity should celebrate Vlad Țepeș's successful campaign. The Genoese from Caffa also thanked Vlad, for his campaign had saved them from an attack of some 300 ships that the sultan planned to send against them.[16]
    Judah likes this.
  20. Gone

    Gone Guest

    ^^^^ Laurence Of Arabia did more to stop the Ottoman Empire than Vlad The Impaler did.

    Two of my greatest heroes, those two historical figures are. Especially Vlad The Impaler.

    LOOK, bad timing for the cartoon from the news agency in France (not the "French cartoon" label that is getting more French people in deep shit than they need to be) but lets face it. Freedom of speech trumps everything. If we don't have that, we are royally F'ed.

    Besides, the fact that ALOT of Muslims the world over are calling for violent executions for something trivial just shows us that Islam has a long way to go before it considered civilized. It took us over 1,000 years to tame Christianity and we are still not quite there with that yet. Fucked if I'm going to have my hands in something as stone age, irrational and downright insane as Islam.
  21. Gone

    Gone Guest

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