"Gentlemen's" Submission Grappling Match

Discussion in 'Grappling Martial Arts' started by RJ Clark, Jun 18, 2013.

  1. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Almost any kind of clothing is just fine for fighting - but you shouldn't rely on utilizing anyone else's (or your own) clothing as a method for control and maneuver as it will likely fail.
     
  2. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

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  3. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Well, you have to remember where I was and who I was facing: I was bouncing in a strip-joint, the guys usually had at least a couple of drinks in them and they were hardly what I would call "professionals". Over the years I made a sort of hobby out of finding out what kind of training and experience these guys had, mainly from their family and friends.

    Most of the time (~65%) they had no formal training at all. They might have played around with their kid brothers or "wrassled" with their friends - that was it.

    ~25% had done some high-school or college wrestling or had other MA training, but never long-term stuff - it usually followed the pattern of "I studied 3 months of BJJ and had a year of Taekwondo" or "I wrestled light-heavy for 2 years in school".

    The last 10% were the dangerous ones, either because they had learned their formal lessons well or were just naturally-talented street-fighters. They were, of course, the most dangerous group.

    Many, many times someone from one of the first two groups would be escorted to the door; I would walk several feet behind them, they would turn and dive for my legs.That's why I walked so far behind them - they weren't crazy enough to put into an escort hold but they still had to leave. I knew they would try something like that so I wanted that extra space, and that space equaled time for me to respond with a head push / strike.

    The smart guys, the 10%, wouldn't be that sloppy. I'd have them in a close-hold position. They'd try a distraction first - an elbow, a back-kick - then they'd spin and try to wrap me up. When they did that I'd start the head-butt BEFORE they tied me up - I agree that once they have you the front head-butt is mostly useless.

    The tap to the nuts? From a rear choke, usually one-armed, not locked-in, plenty of space to maneuver enough to get a hammer-fist in real quick.

    Like I said, these guys weren't pros - they were mainly 18-30 years old, with a little bit of fighting experience. I could afford to measure my responses against them. The 10-per-centers I went full-out right from the start - I wasn't about to give them a chance to show how good they were.
     
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  4. MattCMMA

    MattCMMA Master

    Just incase anyone missed it, I will point out the bullshit exposed. Enjoy
     
  5. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    You might want to know a bit more about the situation before you make an ass of yourself again.
     
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  6. MattCMMA

    MattCMMA Master

    Sorry SifuPhil the techniques described in your first post would never hold up versus anyone with even a single year of wrestling. Just because they worked on drunk morons, doesn't mean it will work with someone with the knowledge of basic grappling. So before you actually begin to speak about the effectiveness of grappling, I suggest you actually go and grapple versus actual grapplers. You're talking out your ass, plain and simple.

    Or perhaps we should just rename any advice you give
    "SifuPhil's Martial Arts advice to dealing with drunken morons -
    ps. If you face anyone more knowledgeable... this advice is useless"
     
  7. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

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  8. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    How about we title it "REAL World Grappling, Not Grab-Ass Sport" ?

    I think that would be an appropriate title.
     
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  9. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    By "club" I thought you were referring to a gym/training hall, ala Jack LaLane style (that's your generation, right? I kiiiid. I kiiiid!) OK then against those kinds of jokers. In particular when alcohol is involved...
     
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  10. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Yeah, I'm sorry - night club, strip club, gin joint, that kind of club ...

    And yes, Jack LaLanne is my generation. I'm actually proud to be in the same generation as a guy who didn't need any chemical assistance to be in great shape and who advocated clean living everywhere he went. ;)
     
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  11. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    In our school, we doing take-downs within pad work, so you will be doing jab/cross then immediately you have their leg while pushing forward or torquing sideways. The idea is sort of like feinting, where you shove your fists into their face and before them come to terms with that, take-down. Much more different than the 'bum rush' that most people think of when they say take-down.
     
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  12. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    but in reality not an mma fight, once you get taken down then what from a wrestling perspective,wrestling like all various styles have their own pros and cons, guy will shoot take you down then try and keep you on the ground and then punch him in the throat game over, or while we both on the ground his buddies or yours will be kicking the other, wrestling in an mma fight is a completely different scenario and has its value sure but not in isolation in a real fight scenario
     
  13. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Actually wrestling is one of the most valuable skills in a real fight as well for the emphasis on dominant position and control (part of that control is easily neutralizing a good striker by putting him on his back) The "buddy swarm "can happen no matter where the fight takes place, but if you want to keep it standing or need to get back to your feet after going to the ground not much will serve you better than fundamental wrestling skills. EDIT: sorry if this isn't the most concise post - I'm typing it out from my phone.
     
  14. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Doing wrestling is the best way to avoid being wrestled to the ground, bar none! Grappling is a one on one idea, if he has buddies, you should probably distract and get the eff out of there! Did everyone see the movie REDBELT? The bar fight scene? May seem a bit old fashioned martial arty, but I like to think that is why I do BJJ, to be able to neutralize someone without either of us getting hurt.
     
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  15. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    I hear what you saying about neutralizing a striker by putting him on his back and then being able to stand up again, but then what ? the striker stands up too and then its exactly where it was a few seconds ago, I agree 100% about its application in an controlled environment like an mma fight then its invaluable but in "real" worls scenario Im not so convinced.

    I know you have done various arts but wouldnt you say that the wrestling is a good tool to add to an existing style etc not an effective isolated style for self defence per say
     
  16. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    haha I really didnt like that movie :rolleyes: , but from a Bjj perspective unless its a choke your attacker is not going to be leaving unhurt, cause tapping in a real attack situation is not gonna happen so you would need to break whatever you holding
     
  17. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    The striker put on his back gets mauled by the wrestler. If getting back to the feet is even an option there will be a lot less pep in the strikers step after the ground struggle. As far as a "stand-alone" art/style goes, absolutely everything has strengths and exploitable weaknesses. But wrestling is probably the best start to gaining a grappling skill set. It's tough for me to look at it as a "one skill to rule them all" as I was always training multiple disciplines right from the start, but a very good wrestler can at least dictate where a fight will take place against virtually anyone...
     
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  18. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    As far as the real world grappling goes, I have a very self- defense oriented look to grappling. I don't look to go to the ground in every fight (plus being a pretty good striker helps). But when it does a hard takedown or throw takes the wind out of a guys sails if not takes him out of the fight entirely. Again tho, I always set-up my grappling with strikes which makes both much more effective, sooooo...
     
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  19. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    ok cool I get what you saying, suppose its a difficult one to separate when its been mixed into your training
     
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  20. Battodoka07

    Battodoka07 Warrior Monk




    Which can be a good thing as you fight IRL the way you train. Look up Masahiko Kimura and how his Osoto Gari (basically a leg reap) gave people concussions. As a beginner it's good to show striking, clinch and ground separately but as skill progresses it's a good idea to flow it all together.

     
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