Is Ninjutsu Self Defense?

Discussion in 'Ninjitsu' started by Traderjoe, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Traderjoe

    Traderjoe Disciple

  3. MadoreGojuRyu

    MadoreGojuRyu Master

    any form of fighting is a self defense. you train your body as a weapon of self defense and to defeat those who threaten you.
  4. damon

    damon Initiate

    sounds about right to me
  5. UK-Student

    UK-Student Disciple

    Linked article is spot on.

    Disagree any form of fighting is self defence but think whether or not something like Ninjutsu (or any oriental art) can be used as real self defence is down to the actual person, how realistic their preparations are and how much they really understand self defence. You can't make generalisations on an art vs art level. I imagine there are highly ranked proponents of most oriental martial arts who are incapable of defending themselves or who would use excessive force / lack of provocation and get themselves correctly arrested.

    And lets face it, some people who have studied martial arts (though hopefully a tiny minority) are actually the bad guy in a given situation.
    Master of Nothing likes this.
  6. Muay Thai Samurai

    Muay Thai Samurai Never Back Down

    Personally disagreed with a lot of what the article states but it also has a lot right such as no martial art being better than the other for a long time now ive hated the argument and im glad someone finally stood up and shot it down
  7. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    One of the great things about BJJ is that I can use some of its most effective techniques (blood chokes) without fear of excessive force. All that happens is that they go to sleep and urinate themselves, then wake up dazed and confused (and suggestible). No marks, no permanent damage, no reason for me to be arrested. Also, chokes are reliable and fairly easy to secure against most people.
    Battodoka07 likes this.
  8. Battodoka07

    Battodoka07 Warrior Monk

    I think the most important lesson from the article is to study the laws regarding use of force, self defense and even justifiable homicide. You don't have to learn every state but at least know the laws within your own state.
    Master of Nothing and Sherratt like this.
  9. Michael Spivey

    Michael Spivey Warrior Monk

    Wither or not an art or a way is a "self defense" art or way or is "capable" of being used for or as "Self Defense" depends entirely on the how, what, and more importantly the why one uses it. If one uses "something" to defend themselves, it is self defense and it does not matter IF the something was designed or intended to be used that way.

    Any and all martial arts obviously "CAN" be used for self defense purposes, whither they were designed to be used in that manner is another subject entirely.
    Master of Nothing and Aaron like this.
  10. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    I have both agreed and disagreed with "Animal's" philosophies over the years. This article I also have mixed feelings about, but certainly I can identify with the concept that "self-defense" and "fighting" are two different legal concepts.

    The problem I have is in a situation where, for example, someone swings a pipe at you.


    No, not that kind - the kind you might find in a plumbing-supply store.

    Let's say I employ a technique that I've trained for years, and let's say that said technique involves the simultaneous blocking of the pipe and the breaking of the arm wielding it.

    The law would say that was too extreme, that it crossed the line from self-defense to fighting, because I made an aggressive move.

    My question is, what else was i supposed to do - stand there just blocking for a few hours until my attacker gets tired and the cops show up, hoping all the while my attacker doesn't get lucky? The problem with defense is that it has to be 100% effective 100% of the time; offense only needs one lucky break.

    But as for the deadly techniques being sold today - yes, I agree 100%.
  11. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    SifuPhil, I'm pretty sure in the US a metal-pipe is considered a deadly weapon or instrument. So, you'd be justified, legally, in breaking your attacker's arm wielding such a weapon.
    Sherratt and Enkidu like this.
  12. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    And again I would agree with you in general, but from personal experience I can say that it doesn't always work out that way.
    Sherratt, Aaron and ghost like this.
  13. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    I disagree that breaking someone's arm who is using potentially lethal force aimed at you would be considered too extreme by the law. If you were carrying a gun (legally) and someone attacked you with a pipe, you would be justified in using the gun to defend yourself. So, if that is the case, I see no legal issue with an arm break.
    Sherratt, Aaron and Battodoka07 like this.
  14. SifuPhil

    SifuPhil Lucky Cat Is Lucky

    Damn - why do I always end up being the ONE exception? :(

    Up until my incident I believed exactly the same way. I guess that's the price one pays for living in Mayberry RFD.
    Enkidu likes this.
  15. Traderjoe

    Traderjoe Disciple

    In Hawaii you would be treated as a criminal and locked up for doing any kind of self defense. The state wants to be the guardian angle so they feel they can rationalize their fat union jobs. It all depends on your political climate NOT on common sense.
    SifuPhil likes this.
  16. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    hmm.... I thought this would be the same in the USA, but in Canada they key words are ``officer, I felt threatened`` ... my intent was not to hurt him.... I simply instinctively tried to avoid getting hit.

    Less said, the better. But, if one continued to wail on that person, well, obviously, this is another story; and potential charges would deem legit.

    Now, if someone unarmed breaks into your house and you do physical harm to them (esp. with a bang bang device) ... you go to jail; as it is considered over kill.

    btw - at most schools the teachers now tell children they are not allowed to physically protect themselves from bullies (like blocks, etc.) ... so children believe they have no rights. Well, when I get a hold of these kids in my class, along with the typical walk away and tell techniques, if they feel ``threatened`` from getting physically hurt, they are allowed to defend themselves, and I show & explain how a palm strike to the face not only is more effective, but in doing so IF a teacher sees them do this ... they can honestly say ``I felt threatened and I pushed that person out of my space`` - plus, you will have no marks on your fist, so there is no way anyone can say you punched them back.
  17. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Canada and the United States were both British colonies and inherited a good part of their legal systems from English Common Law. Under English common law and under the law of all 50 states and Federal law in the United States, reasonable under the circumstances is permitted in self defense, including the use of lethal force under certain circumstances (i.e., where there is a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm or death).

    I doubt that is the case in Canada. Deadly force is usually not permitted against an unarmed person who poses no reasonable threat of serious bodily injury except in the case of a home invasion robbery. There is generally a "duty to retreat" before using deadly force, except if you are in your home, where the law presumes that you have a reasonable fear of serious injury or death from someone entering your home unless circumstances show otherwise. Moreover, if you don't know whether someone breaking into your home is armed or not, for example, in the middle of the night you are in bed with your wife and hear the window break and someone enter your home, you certainly don't have to ascertain whether the person breaking into your home is armed or poses a threat of serious harm to you or your family before you are permitted to use deadly force in self-defense.

    Unfortunately, schools will treat both participants in a school fight equally even when one is the attacker and one is defending himself against bullying or worse. I experienced this growing up. Being the only Jewish kid in a Conservative Christian small town, as well as being a year younger and significantly smaller and weaker (and far more socially awkward) made me the target of repeated bullying and abuse. I recall being in 10th grade and getting the shit kicked out of me by 3 much larger skinheads who were juniors and seniors in the hallway of my high school. I fought back as hard as I could. Yet the principle was prepared to suspend all 4 of us. Luckily, I had parents who raised wholly hell about it and the circumstances were such that the school would have looked damned foolish following through with my suspension. But had the circumstances been less extreme, I am certain that I would have been suspended for defending myself, as ridiculous as that would have been under the circumstances.
    Sherratt likes this.
  18. Traderjoe

    Traderjoe Disciple

    Sensei Martin likes this.
  19. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Exactly, I've often been asked if I'd "ever use martial arts in a fight" my response is I can't NOT use martial arts it's part of me, who I am, anything I do in that kind of situation!
    Sherratt and Aaron like this.
  20. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I believe its very similar in the UK, best advice I ever got was, if the police get involved don't say a word until your solicitor is present.
    Sensei Martin likes this.
  21. John Spencer

    John Spencer Initiate

    I found the article sounded like those adverts you used to get in magazines (probably still do!). You know the ones, "fed up of having to train, now you can learn the whole thing in an hour on DVD!" And oh look, there's a book to buy!

    I worked for a number of years in a Psychiatric Ward at a local hospital. The "Control & Restraint" rules meant no bruising, so I found drilling the Takagi Yoshin Ryu syllabus was v useful.

    In th UK, the best phrase to use is " I was in fear of my life officer, I wasn't thinking straight, I thought I was going to die."

    I have had this from a local Police Instructor, so comes with good authority. The only exeptions in UK law is the use of weapons (unless multiple attackers), and breaking the speed limit!

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