I've only come back to give some bad news...It's offical

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Bat Shit Crazy, Jul 17, 2012.

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  1. Deborah

    Deborah Ninja

    I am saddened to hear that Kyukia, instead of leaving you should have went to the moderators.....after all that is what they are for. They could have helped you sort your differences out, with respects Bryan, nii san, kyun =^_^=
    steve didino likes this.
  2. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

    let's go through the logical arguments here.

    1. America has been into imperialization for forever, and doesnt like not having at least minor control some places.
    2. america is in an "Armed conflict" with Afghanistan.
    3. we are fighting an asymetrical style of warfare because of insurgency. the primary means to fight this have been through targeted killings (which, according to some are morally questionable, but im perfectly happy with it.)
    4.people are stupid.
    5.the guy he's talking about is no longer in office and has no power
    6. congress, then president.

    from that i can only conclude that no there isnt going to be a draft, soully because of the lack of need for it. where we needed TONs of men in WW2, we use drones and seal teams to take out hear honchos through targeted killings. a draft is unnecessary, excessive, and regardless of how stupid people are in america, and how much into imperialization we are, it isn't going to happen.
  3. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    Comedy gold! Hahahaha!
  4. steve didino

    steve didino Disciple

    this is martial arts forum this is getting silly be nice and respectful otherwise i will leave the room to much bs
  5. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    What's silly and BS is some of the unrealistic claims made by a couple of posters in this forum. I can't speak for anyone here, but my idea of being nice and respectful probably differs from yours and others' and doesn't exclude candor. One of the ways I express my honesty is by laughing out loud. If something is funny to me I'm not only going to laugh, but I'm going to make sure people who can't hear it on a message board know I find something funny.
  6. steve didino

    steve didino Disciple

    yes but is a forum for fighting arts nuff said kevin does a fab job
  7. steve didino

    steve didino Disciple

    i enjoy forum exchanging views and getting ideas long may it continue.
    ghost and Kevin like this.
  8. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    As you guys know, I don't like to moderate a forum too heavily, as it can be frustrating for members.

    I'm happy for people to discuss off topics like this on the forum as long as it doesn't get out of hand. You need to remember that we have members from all around the world. Many have different religious views and many have different political views and views on life in general. These are subjects that we could perhaps discuss calmly over a beer if we were all sitting in person but on a forum many things can be taken the wrong way as it's not always clear the context they were written (unless you use a smiley after every other word).

    Like most people, there are subjects I have very strong views on and others which I don't feel too strongly about. Religion and politics are subjects that nearly always cause problems as they are subjects most people feel very strongly about. Attacks on someones beliefs on religion and politics can sometimes feel very personal and other times may even come across as racist, xenophobic or just damn right ignorant.

    Feel free to continue discussing this subject though please be respectful of other peoples views, even if they are contrary to your own :)
  9. steve didino

    steve didino Disciple

    well said common sense prevails
  10. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Well to me, being respectful doesn't mean suffering fools. People who make ridiculous statements of fact or support bizarre conspiracy theories need to be told in no uncertain terms that they are foolish and wrong. Not all viewpoints are deserving of equal respect. Kyukia Konomi comes on here making outlandish and blatantly false statements out of fear-mongering about a draft being reinstated in the United States. Then Sensei Martin jumps on and makes ridiculous political accusations about the United States only being in Afghanistan to expand its empire. Not to be outdone Dhark Awakening (while pretending to try and diffuse things) pops in and starts casually throwing around 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    And I am supposed to be respectful of these viewpoints?

    Sorry, that isn't going to happen.

    These views aren't contrary to my "viewpoint" they are contrary to the truth and rational thought as well as being inflammatory and false bullshit. I won't let bullshit like that go unchallenged and I won't let bullshit like that be treated respectfully because it isn't worthy of being respected. If you start treating outlandish crap like it is worthy of equal consideration with rational viewpoints, then people might start to think of it that way.
    Eric M. Miller and RJ Clark like this.
  11. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Actually, it looked like everything was handled quite well, even tho three of the posts were "hand grenades thrown into a picnic" to paraphrase myself. Kononmi is obviously a bit...unstable right now. The counters to his thread were abrupt but not overly harsh. The accusation and conspiracy theory were quickly picked apart with intelligent responses that were appropriately heated (hard not to be passionate when responding to those two items).
    Perhaps when someone is just voicing an opinion that has no factual basis they should remember to add on the catch-all disclaimer of IMO. Then the responses may not be quite so cutting and remain on a more friendly point counter-point level.
  12. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    I wasn't getting involved in the discussion beforehand and certainly suggest I agreed with anyones views.

    This brings up the discussion about what the truth is. For example, I'm atheist. I believe religions are all man made. To me, there is as much truth in the story of Jesus as there is in Zeus or Santa Claus. Which is why I pray to Joe Pesci :)

    I am not going to start criticising people here if they do follow in religion. My parents are religious, as are many friends, and it is their right to believe what they want (even if I strongly disagree with their views).

    When it comes to Politics, it's difficult to say what the truth is and what is bullshit. I've been to the USA several times and certain news there is reported very differently to how it is in the rest of the world.

    I don't believe that the USA is trying to expand their empire, though I think it's also naive to believe the presence of the USA and British troops in Afghanistan was about 9/11. It's well documented that most of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudia Arabia yet the government ushered out lots of important Saudi Arabians after the event happened and the USA and my own country then went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think it's a coincidence that the major contracts and oil deals were divided up in Iraq and Afghanistan between UK and American companies. Does that mean the war is about oil? Who knows, the media and politicians spew so much bullshit that it becomes impossible to say what the truth is and what isn't (I have no doubt oil plays a factor though). It's called mis-information.

    The media has a bad habit of changing who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. The taliban were trained by the USA when they were at war with Russia (look at the final message at the end of Rambo 3). They didn't turn bad guys overnight - the agenda just changed.

    This has happened in the UK as well. During the Iraq Iran war they reported that Iran gassed the Kurds. When we went to war in Iraq ten years later they changed it to say that it was Saddam who gassed the kurds. The only thing that does seem clear is that Winston Churchill did gas Mesopotamia in 1920 - or perhaps it's not clear, perhaps it will always remain as 'alleged'.

    Even when a government tells its people that it is remaining neutral, it usually isn't. A great example of this happened a few years ago (I think during the second Lebanon war). Two planes stopped in Scotland from the USA for re-fueling. The one going to Lebanon was full of guns, bombs and other weapons. The one going to Lebanon contained food and other aid.

    About a year before European countries started raising Libya more in the news and in politics etc, there was a great article in a British newspaper that predicted it would happen. It confirmed that around 5% of Libyan oil supplied around 95% of the oil in European countries. This was why the British government, and most other European governments, were playing nice with Gaddafi, despite him being a dictator etc. The article said that they would try and woo him with deals etc but if he wouldn't play ball on certain issues, they would start pushing the agenda via news channels so that they could justify sending troops there.

    Again, is this the truth? Who knows. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. I just know that no one here in this forum really has the right to say what the truth is and what bullshit is on a lot of subjects - including myself. I read a lot of history and I do have views on a lot of subjects. I also enjoy a good debate from time to time however I know from experience that it's difficult to have debates of this nature on forums. As I noted previously, things are taken out of context whilst other times people just have opposite views.

    I do understand why their posts upset you though. I'm sure I would feel the same on many subjects, particularly if people were making accusations about my own country etc.
    Deborah and Bruce like this.
  13. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    The 9/11 attackers may have been mostly Saudi citizens, but they were part of an organization, Al Quada, that was operating out of Afghanistan, and doing so with impunity and under the protection of the Taliban government. Also, Afghanistan basically has no natural resources. Any attempts to find a reason for the US invasion of Afghanistan that have some motivation other than 9/11 are based on conjecture and speculation or stretching logic to the point of breaking. As far as the oil deals in Iraq being divvied up among those countries that participated in the invasion, that really shouldn't come as a surprise. Who are you going to give the deals to? Nations that opposed the invasion and actively and vocally opposed the US and UK, but then wish to participate in the "spoils of war" after the fact? Seems like that is getting your cake and eating it too. This doesn't mean I support the invasion of Iraq (I don't, I think it was a misguided sideline from the real war with Al Quada). But to jump from this to "war for oil" is a pretty big jump, particularly when we didn't secure the oil in any way (in fact, oil has steadily been increasing in cost due to disruptions in production and fears). High oil costs have cost Western economies dearly. Hardly what you would expect if, as the propagandists say, it was "war for oil."

    Neither Al Quada nor the Taliban existed back when the US was arming Afghan rebels to fight the Soviet occupation. As a matter of fact, it was the power vacuum caused by the Soviets leaving and the US not stepping in afterwards that allowed Afghanistan to be overrun by crazies from around the Islamist world and become a terrorist playground. It isn't because we armed the the terrorists.

    It was always known that Iraq (not Iran) used gas in the Iran-Iraq war. Not sure where you are getting the fact that the reporting of it was wrong back then. I think you may be misremembering things.

    Listen, I am not saying that the US or UK is above reproach and does no wrong or doesn't play Realpolitik. Heck, initially, the US did support the Taliban because the Taliban was destroying the poppy fields. But the claim that we were treating them as the good guys or arming them is wrong. If you are going to criticize, at least do it for real reasons and not made up ones or ones that are blatantly false (like the claims made about the draft, Afghanistan being for the purpose of expanding the US empire, or spewing 9/11 conspiracy theories).
  14. Ed Bates

    Ed Bates Guest

    I was hoping for us to stay on martial arts topics. The talk of war and politics only causes riffs between members that should be getting along.
    I personally think every man and women should enlist in any branch of the military for at least 4 years. Why? Because I'm tired of seeing undisciplined, under educated, lazy civilians sucking the system dry while walking through wal mart in their pajamas with their 5 kids running around the store. Enlisting will give them PRIDE in their country, job training, education, DISCIPLINE.
    Bruce likes this.
  15. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    Afghanistan may not have oil but it is territory crucial for the delivery of natural gas from Turkmenistan down to the coast of Pakistan, via future construction of the "trans-Afghanistan pipeline". So, the US and its allies do have natural resources that need to be accessed. Just not in Afghanistan itself, which is critically significant, geographically, to those ends. Oh wait!

    In 2010 The New York Times broke a story about Pentagon officials and American geologists discovering huge deposits of minerals, (iron, copper, gold, lithium and coltan) potentially, in the trillions of dollars. I (we) knew about those deposits when I was there in '02. I'm pretty sure if I knew, then so did Harmid Karzai.

    Btw, Afghanistan is a militarily, strategic mass of interest against Iran. Look at a map of the Middle East. With Afghanistan's future borders in US control, along with Iraq's, Iran is completely surrounded. Not quite check-mate, but almost.
    Kevin likes this.
  16. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    The taliban didn't exist but most of them had been trained in the 80s by the USA (eg Osama bin laden).

    With regards to Iraq gassing the Kurds, the western media generally supposed Iraq initially and Iran were portrayed in a negative light. A UK newspaper highlighted this and showed articles and headlines from when the news had been announced originally. It highlighted how the media can manipulate facts to push an agenda (they showed lots of examples from world war I and II).

    I'm not saying these wars were just for oil, though they are definitely a big factor. The fact that countries like Zimbabwe and Myanmar had dictatorships for years and Western countries didn't intervene highlights that the natural resources of a country play a big part into whether troops get sent. Why did our countries even go to Iraq? Not sure if it made the news in the USA but the consultant who was hired by the British government advised that there were no WMD in Iraq. Shortly afterwards he committed suicide in a park, despite apparently being a happy person who lived his family and had no previous history of mental illness.

    It was shown that most of the money or mom Iraq has been filtered out to major oil companies. For example, there was one major contract that was awarded to an American company. They sub contracted it to a French company, who in turn hired a local Iraqi company. The Iraqi company got about 20-30% of the original contract cost, with the rest being split between the American and French companies. This happened frequently with British companies too. I just don't buy the reasons our governments went there. You don't have to have a big bullshit radar to know that lots of the facts and reasons being given when we went to war was bullshit. Millions protested in the uk and our government still went. So much for democracy. :)
    Deborah likes this.
  17. Deborah

    Deborah Ninja

    Could someone please elaborate?? I am truly lost...I thought this was about Kyukia and his departure....respects and confusion my martial friends xxxXXxxx
  18. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    It became something else entirely. You may want to start at the beginning of this thread. Trust me when I say that will be quicker than trying to explain:)
    Kevin and Deborah like this.
  19. Kevin

    Kevin Admin Staff Member

    For future reference, any 'goodbye' type threads will be closed or deleted. They never contribute anything positive to the community and are usually just a poorly disguised attempt to hurt the forum in some way (by causing arguments or telling other members to leave too). If you aren't enjoying Black Belt Forums, just leave. Obviously we don't want that though this is a free forum and you can come and go as you please. Goodbyes to friends should be done via private message. :)

    Anyways, back to the off topic debate :) :)
    Bruce and RJ Clark like this.
  20. Deborah

    Deborah Ninja

    OMFG!!!! I don't believe I managed to miss most of this thread, it gave me a bloomin headache just reading it:eek:! Thank feck I went for wee walk and a sleep. Thanx RJ....love, peace and respects my martial friend xxxXXXxxxXXXxxxx
    Bruce and RJ Clark like this.
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