Karate's Reputation

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussions' started by Ben, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    I will also mention that we learned and practiced spinning and jumping kicks while in "Shotokan"...

    We knew how to do them and how to apply them. In the 90s, while leaving in Fla., I joined a TKD school for about a month. The teacher was ex-Air Force and a Viet Nam vet and the school had a good reputation, but I left because of how they wanted me to apply these techniques. For example, we would do one step sparring exercises and after blocking and being within arms reach of the attacker, they wanted me to do a spinning heel kick....Look, if I can touch your nose with my fist, I am not doing a spinning heel kick....So I left.

    I also have to say that when in military shool in Ga., one of the best sparring partners we had was TKD red belt. So, I agree, there are no shitty styles, but shitty schools that put out shitty students...
     
    Ben likes this.
  2. Darrell

    Darrell Initiate

    Our Goju school was next door to a TKD school at one time and we would spar each other off and on. The TKD instructor was a good guy and he made sure his students respected other styles, especially if they could beat them down. He (the TKD isntructor) wanted his students to learn to fight close in, he even told us to rush them because they were getting to use to sparring each other and fighting at a distance. We also had a program with other schools where once a month a group would travel to each others schools to spar. Every style has it's strengths and weakness but I have known a good number of practitioners from other styles that seem to think that their style is the best and others suck, so it's not just TKD, although I've known more from that style that have that attitude than others. We had another korean school, Kuk Sool Wun I believe, that told our instructor that their style was so good that other styles could never land a hit on them, he soon after proved him wrong.
    It's mostly on how the instructor teaches the students, some teach them to respect other styles and some teach them that other styles are worthless, usually because they doin't want their students to switch schhools. I've sparred black belts in TKD and some were good but a lot not so good, even sparred and assistant instructor and pissed him off but putting him on his butt more than once. Overall, it's an attitude that gets passed on by the instructor, do what I did anytime someone mouthed off about my style, politly invite them to a sparring match. I keep asking a friend of mine to spar but he keeps making excuses why he doesn't want to or can't. He actually said one time that he wasn't allowed to since he had is black belt, I laughed and told him when he got his man pants on to come back and see me.
     
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  3. "It is the man that makes the art, not the art makes a man". "Good students are a reflection of their teacher, Bad teachers reflect badly". I have looked for a mentor all my life, In martial arts i have found many instructors, all have been excellent athletes, good teachers of the physical skill. Though as mentors they have never risen to my expectations. A wise Karate Sensei in Ngatea said to me when i was a green stripe in ITF TKD "They only say bad things about taekwondo because they either do not understand the way or they find it difficult to admit how good Taekwondo is" i believe the same is also true for Karate-do.
    There are bad teachers and there are good teachers in both TKD and Karate Camps, and many have given up the old ways of training for more modern styled training. Like not teaching Bunkai because it might mean belt attainment will take longer or it’s too hard for some, or the teaching of moral culture and mental discipline’s because it’s not popular or it’s boring. All of which are important in the understanding of the total art. Though to say a person is not a real martial artist because of the style they practice, that’s like saying I’m not a real Christian because I’m a Catholic and I get that sometimes too. These people need to understand what ‘Do ‘ in Karate-do truly means and study what it is to be a practitioner of ‘The Martial Way’ a lot more.
    I have had a very profound path in the martial arts in the people i have met, trained with and by. I have tried and see the world from many different angles to have a better perspective on issues in my life. Taekwondo, Hapkido, Tang Soo-do and most Korean martial arts were born out of almost 40 years of occupation of what we now call Korea by Japan. Prior to 1909 Korea had a vibrant Chinese’s influenced martial art systems, one of being called Taekyon and it did have other names as well. During the occupation of Korea much of the culture was substituted for Japanese culture. When liberation occurred in 1945 there was much effort made in Korea to distance itself from Japan. This was one of the reasons why the KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) was formed. To have a martial art they can call their own. As most Koreans were practicing Japanese styled martial arts prior to 1945, as was dictated by the ruling power at the time.
    This differentiating itself and rediscovering cultural Korean traditions also produced this attitude between practitioners that TKD is better than Karate, which I believe is still a hangover from nation building process in Korean from 1945-1960. Why do I believe this? I have seen Karate masters beat Taekwondo masters in sparring and I have seen Taekwondo Masters beat Karate masters in sparring. If like me you believe that competition weakens your art, then who wins sparring competitions means very little. All warriors know is, any hand to hand combat doctrine is a weapon system as much as a M16 rifle or jet fighter is. As technologically advanced a weapon system may be, it is the warrior behind the kick, trigger or control stick that makes the system work to its best possible performance. “It’s the warrior that makes the weapon, not the weapon that makes the warrior”
    I hear this often, “TKD is just watered down Shotokan karate”. Which is interesting as it could be said that karate is just watered down ‘Chuan Fa’, which in turn could be said about ‘Chuan Fa’ in that is just a watered down art form that was taught in the Vedic culture in which is now called India. I have come to understand that. “Everything comes from somewhere else, and as it passes from one to another we add a piece of our self (synergy) to it as we make it our own”.
    I do not see Karate-do as tarnished in its reputation, as I mingle with many awesome practitioners and teachers of Karate, as I also do with Taekwondo and Hapkido. I do see a lack of understanding of ‘The Martial Way’ and loss other eastern philosophical knowledge to western cultural practice and I am a westerner. I try to study all the great masters, to better understand the Martial Way regardless of style. Gichin Funakoshi, General Choi Hong Hi were great masters just to name two.
     
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  4. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I completely agree Ben, karate is complete shit.... Oh no wait, that wasn't your point. Damn! Curse me for not reading thoroughly and jumping on the band wagon! Ok seriously I think it has something to do with the fact that everyone has heard of karate. Tell someone you're doing something they've be et heard of and it's mysterious. But for many people the words "karate" and "martial art" are synonyms and anything with kicking us called karate.
     
    SifuPhil and Ben like this.
  5. Blade Maker

    Blade Maker Master

    It's the practitioner not the system.
     
    Dpendleton and Ben like this.
  6. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Sorry? Is that a typo?
     
    Ben likes this.
  7. Ben

    Ben Master

    not at all Caneman. 3 years and he's either 3rd or second dan.
     
  8. Gone

    Gone Guest

    Wait, so do people from dojos in other styles go around and raid dojos in other styles? A la Green Street Hooligans style or something?

    I hear this was big 20-30+ years ago. To muscle out competition and to work out who's style/instruction was better, blah blah.

    Damn that'd be fun to watch a bunch of boys in say Hapkido go start a fight with a punch of Pankrationists in their own gym in the middle of training or whatever.
     
  9. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.



    I love that P.O.D. song.
     
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  10. ghost

    ghost Disciple

    Superior to all Japanese martial arts, Tae Kwon Do is the greatest martial art ever invented having its roots in the original Shaolin Temple of Korea, according to a 6th degree TKD master I'm acquainted. Haha!
     
  11. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

    my dad is a 4th dan in nara-seecha karate. trust me, he kicks ass.
     
  12. Dpendleton

    Dpendleton Warrior Monk

    I can believe that. :)
     
  13. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Come on....
     
  14. Dpendleton

    Dpendleton Warrior Monk

    But it was invented in a Shaolin temple 2000 ago in Korea. :)
     
  15. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    I have studied both Karate, TaeKwondo and found good and bad things in both! Karate has many styles, which one is the best or worst? TaeKwondo has two main governing bodies, which one is the best or worst? I went to the Battle of Atlanta in past years and found that most of the points scored are touches to the head or body. I also found that when a TKD student fights at that tournament they usually lose because they are not use to touching their opponent as they use full contact and at this tournament it is who touches first! I also find that when Karate students come to a TKD tournaments they lose because they don't understand the rules and are not use to the contact that they receive. What I'm saying is this..."It's not the art, it's the individual in that art!" I've put boxers against Karate and TKD fighters and the Karate, TKD fighters lost because they lacked the punching skills needed to beat the boxer! However, I had placed some boxers against the Karate or TKD fights and they lost because they lacked the skills to beat their kicking skills. So, it's about the individual more than the art. I personally don't like to hear who is the best or the worst and those who say that usually can't back it up anyway! Do I have a preference sure....I like them both! Just like steak or ground beef! Sometimes you find a school or style that just doesn't fit you personally, so you tend to bad mouth that school or style. Sometimes you find someone you like a lot and their school is okay but not the best you've seen...so you start training there anyway. The choice is yours! Master Fahy
     
  16. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    I agree with you 100% Master Fahy.

    The other day I was talking with my brother in law who knows noting about martial arts and said to me that he knew a guy who "knew" Karate and got hit in the head with a rake....I actually did not say much more if anything but the problems is that so many "morons" profess to know Karate, or least that happened when Karate was the most popular MA back in the 70's and 80's, that who knows "who knows" Karate.

    The problem with TKD is that some schools have concentrated so much in the sport, that it is no longer a Martial Art, and the same for many Karate schools. As far as touch tournament fighting, I never liked it because it is a facsimile of self defense and as you say, rules change the outcome of the winner many times. As I have mentioned in this thread, if I go to a school and I don't agree with how they teach and I am honest with myself in that I am not the "expert" of all arts, but it is clearly not good, I leave. But I don't bad mouth it. I remember the OLD Tang So Do, and they were very good. I am sure that the TKD taught to the Army of the ROK is very good. Any MA is better than NO MArt...
     
  17. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    Mr. Bond, I started in Tangsoodo back in 1969 and after several years earned my IL Dan. I went to many karate tournaments back in the day because there weren't that many tsd or tkd tournaments around back then. I lost many of fights because of excessive contact because our school didn't train for tournaments. Back in the day, there were only a few different kicks like the side, round house, front and back kick being used. Today they use many of variations of these kicks. The flashy kicks are for show not to really use in a fight. Your right about everyone saying that they know karate! I was always asked if I knew karate, I would tell them, "sure, he's a good friend of mine!" Chuck Norris was a tangsoodo stylist who beat many of the karate guys of the 1960's. I could tell a lot of stories about tournaments back in the day or about the training in Korea with the ROK rangers. The training today is nothing like the training back then. Master Fahy
     
  18. Dpendleton

    Dpendleton Warrior Monk

    Master Fahy I agree with you when you say it is not the art it is the fighter, I have seen many of these guys lose to street fighters(untrained) when I was in high school till it was not funny. Not saying they lost all the time but it seemed like they did not learn to fight or was trained on some B.S., this was back in the 80s when the arts being taught was pretty hardcore. I personally like Taekwondo but I do not care for the WTF sport style of it. I am more of a give me practical self defense techniques if you are going to make me do forms.
     
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  19. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    Dpendleton, I enjoy traditional martial arts most of all but, I do think that tournament fighting has some substance also. That is the closest to the real thing that most people get. I do teach traditional TKD and other arts as well as sport style TKD or WTF. What most students of the traditional arts enjoy is the discipline that they receive from their training as well as the art it self. What I find most intriguing is the way that the human body can adapt mentally and physically from training in martial arts. Master Fahy
     
  20. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Samurai

    Ben, this sounds like the statement that your friend said about Karate! Master Fahy
     

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