Non violance in the martial arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussions' started by Dale, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. Dale

    Dale Scholar of the martial arts

    Hello everyone, I was browsing youtube the other day and came across a martial arts instructor who teaching a system designed not to hurt your opponent, much like aikido but with some differences.

    Here is a playlist of the videos

    And I was wondering, as martial artists are goal of coarse is non violence, but my question to you is how far are you willing to go to not hurt someone and what do you think of non violence based training? Now this would not be the path I would take as a karate guy myself, but I am interested on hearing your opinions.
    Master of Nothing, Pedro and RJ Clark like this.
  2. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    I watched a few of these videos, and having done a few years of Hapkido, I would say that a lot of this only works against a compliant uke. Could probably say the same thing for Aikido, which I have less experience with. It MAY work against a mildly aggressive, or perhaps belligerent fellow who was completely untrained and perhaps amazingly drunk. I do notice a lot of the techniques I nod at are practiced in BJJ, though. I feel that against a trained artist, Karate or boxing or any other, it would prove unsound.

    I don't want to discount the value of it, though. If you only practice Tai Chi, you would do pretty good in a quick altercation against someone who didn't know what he was doing and didn't know that you did. So, if someone enjoys it and it helps them for that situation (most people don't get into fights all that often, after all), all the power to him.

    Finally, though, what good is a self defense art that doesn't stop your attacker? Do we think that people will stop attacking after a couple of mystifying misdirections? You have to end with a choke or else you will be forced to knock out your opponent, or break a limb (which may or may not stop the fight, as well!).
  3. JesterX

    JesterX Disciple

    As a martial artist I feel that violence should be the last resort, used only if there is no other alternative.
    But as a martial artist I train to have that violence controlled and ready, ideally to stop an attack as quickly and efficiently as possible.

    I haven’t the time now to watch the video so I can’t in honesty give a clear opinion. But I have to wonder just how quickly and efficiently one can stop a truly violent attack using non-violence means.
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  4. Pedro

    Pedro Baek Doo San

    Family issues. It may sound unusual, but it happens... what if you had an argument you your short fused old parents and they came at you?
    Or if you had a crazy girlfriend?

    What if you were this cop?

    and many other situations...
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  5. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    It's like listening to a mirror, er, well you know what I mean ;)
    Yes, there should be a response scaled to the threat which means even if you're practicing a one-dimensional art you need to train the full spectrum of techniques. You can't always use apocalypse hurticane spine removal techniques nor can you only utilize universal love lay-your-opponent-down-on-a-bed-of-cotton-candy techniques. That being said, most often a self defense situation will reasonably fall within the knock 'em out, choke 'em out, or break something, repeat if necessary.
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  6. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    I'm confused.

    On one of the videos

    There was no impression that he was under any thread from his "attacker" no headbutt, punch or grab attempt just a push away by the "attacker" which I don't get. Am I missing something

    The jumping back thing is great if you got space but what if you're against a wall or cornered etc.

    Think its ok but so is the none touch knockout to some people.
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  7. KeithW

    KeithW "Just keep training..."

    In my opinion, the time for non-violence occurs before any attack is made. If a would-be attacker starts ginning up a confrontation, the better tack is to just apologize and move along. In some states, unless a suitable attempt to avoid the confrontation is made, the person being attacked is just as likely to go to jail as the person who started the confrontation, so it's in your best interests to be non-violent and non-confrontational very early on.

    I'd rather apologize and avoid violence all together than let my ego take over sensibility and end up injured, jailed, or dead.

    Now, if the would-be attacker cannot be pacified by apologies and attempts at avoidance, violence becomes necessary. When a situation reaches that point, the best response (unless it's the aforementioned family squabble) is to respond swiftly and violently to end the confrontation as quickly as possible.

    In family situations, there's always a door. Once the situation is getting heated, it's time to leave. If physical confrontation is necessary, it's time to resort to the least violent tactics possible. Any martial artist worth his/her training has a degree of control that allows for the level of pain inflicted to be moderated.

    As for the 'non-violent' videos above, I find them generally laughable based on the fact that the uke is a static opponent who makes one simple move (at least in the vids I watched) and then stops with no follow-up attack. That's about as far removed from 'real' circumstances as training can get. Perhaps 'advanced' videos that I didn't see cover the potential for more complex attacks, but what I saw above is a series of videos on how to get destroyed less swiftly...

    And I'm still chuckling over the police video of that woman crying after getting her proper come-uppance... :blackeye:(y):D
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  8. Pedro

    Pedro Baek Doo San

    the rest of the 13 videos cover it up.
    I think that this attacking position is a "neutral' attack, as most of street fights start with someone pushing another. Anyway, those techniques can be applied to a punch, a pushing, or a grabbing.
    The videos cover only the idea of defending yourself without hurting the attacker. We as experienced martial artists can cover what is missing on that. And we should look up for the good side of things.

    Me too, but some times we gotta try harder than just apologizing. I think this is the most reasonable way out in a physical confrontation, even in non family related cases, some places the consequences of street fighting may be very severe, not only for the attacker, I mean legal consequences, like in some countries or cities, or at a work place... or may be later revenge (i've been through that), or even the sudden start of an armed attack.

    Also many fights come from a burst of courage, after the first attack it may be over or in some situations people may come to help to set the two appart... Anyway the rest of the videos cover more techniques and situations.
  9. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    It appears to be a drill, energy sensitivity type of thing. There is some value, but you can learn more about it by wrestling or grappling.
  10. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    I think, in most situations, you need something to end the altercation. I would say that BJJ is the best non-violent martial art, because you can end a fight with a lock or a choke that would hurt at the time it was applied, but would not injure someone. The nice aspect is, if you wish to take it up a notch, you can break an arm, leg, or any other body part, if you have to. Finally, not to repeat what has been a fight maxim for the past 20 years or so, but a lot of fights go to the ground, and every single one of them has the potential to, no matter how much you would like it not to. Total package for self defense, especially if you are squeamish about striking someone. My self defense situation response against someone I really didn't want to hurt would be to take them down and control them on the ground, and if they still put up resistance, submit them, probably with either a key-lock or arm bar.
  11. Sneaker

    Sneaker Warrior Monk

    I will not hit back but rather arrest her for assault because her back slap is not even a threat at all.

    Just don't lower the standards.

    That cop is dirty anyway.
    JesterX likes this.
  12. DeeD

    DeeD Nak Muay

    yip, simple as that (y)

    This is ridiculous without actually using some form of force, striking, pressure on joint,artery etc the altercation wont end, so what you just going to walk around holding the guy by his arm and pants(other video in series) or jump backwards indefinitely and hope the police show up :rolleyes: great good luck with that

    To answer the actual question as others have mentioned depends on the situation, If its some clown in a bar - not worth it walk away ego related fights never end well, if its a real safety issue for self or family non violence goes out the window but thats what self defence as a definition is all about "the defence of one's person or interests, especially through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime."
    Aaron, Dave76, RJ Clark and 2 others like this.
  13. Pedro

    Pedro Baek Doo San

    yeah, Jiu jitsu is the greatest fighting art to control someone's attack, but you know.. it still involves fighting, I keep thinking about work places where the involved ones may get fired, or in some places that the law is different and the attacked one can get sued.
    Some places, blackbelts and high ranked martial artists, if proved so, of course, if involved in street fighting, can be sued as if they were handling cold weapons. And there are lots of good criminal lawyers to make who is wrong become right.

    It's like music, that is a pre-ordered combination of sounds and silences, some times it's better just to make an effort to evade the attackers... it really depends on the situation, but we have to be ready for any of them.
  14. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Ok, what do you do after you evade an attack? Evade the next, then the next, until they get a shot in, THEN you defend, or are we assuming the attacker stops after one failed attack? With an art similar to BJJ, you can stop your attacker without hurting them, that is, in effect, non violent. If someone attacks you, and you defend without hurting them, you will not be tried for anything. I understand the mindset of arts like Aikido and such, I just don't find them very practical. Arts like BJJ can be used for a wide range of violent situations, and you also get to practice the techniques in a more realistic situation, against a fully resisting opponent.
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  15. Pedro

    Pedro Baek Doo San

    As I said, it really depends on the situation, I'm not saying one should keep dodging till infinity. Many cases there are other people around to surround the attacker and stop the fight, or the first attack is just a burst of anger that ceases after the first blow.
    If a low life thug came at you in the streets, or if someone would rob you unarmed, you don't need that, just kick the shit out of them, but, don't need to answer just to prove a point, would you apply an armbar to your mother? or to a coworker, say, your less qualified short fused boss? Or even to a mad cop..[happened to a friend of mine] you'll be arrested, no questions asked. Would you risk that?
    Even non striking arts for self defense, you have to see if it's worth it
  16. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Oh, I totally agree with you, but my point is that you can learn BBJ and still learn how to move around to evade, and if your opponent stops, you are done, but if he doesn't, you have more that you can do. In answer to your question, I would armbar every single one of them, without question. If someone attacks me, no matter what, I will finish it, whatever it takes. If they continue to struggle, it moves from an armbar to a break. I make it their choice. Armbar only hurts if you struggle or fight it, unless I wish it to hurt more, and as they sit there, they have time to cooldown.

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  17. Sneaker

    Sneaker Warrior Monk

    at 5:59 ... is that woman holding a plastic knife ? :confused:
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  18. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    I've seen this video before, the Forum members all agreed it was way over the top reaction by the BJJ guys and it was just a drunk. there was no threat
  19. KeithW

    KeithW "Just keep training..."

    Armbars end fights in an octagon. They don't mean squat in a street fight. That is to say, break your opponent's arm if you will. When he gets up, he's still a threat with a very pissed off opinion of you.

    I can fight on my feet. I can roll with the BJJ guys. In a violent confrontation, my first priority is avoidance. When avoidance fails, de-escalation is attempted. If de-escalation fails and violence is inevitable, my intention is not to make someone tap out. It is to reduce their threat level to a point which facilitates my escape from the situation.

    And that defensive act will require a violent response.
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  20. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Well, I'm pretty sure it has been established many times here that real self defense is awareness and avoidance. And, of course, de-escalation is part of that. But from that you go to violent response? You need more layers.
    Have you even ever broken someone's arm, or had yours broken, in an arm bar? I have never seen or heard of anyone just getting up afterwards, and being a threat. If he has a broken arm and he tries to come in at you, just kick the arm (it is not like he can defend it well). Honestly, that is a pretty ridiculous claim. Anyways, as you seemed to have missed the point of the conversation, the arm bar example was done mostly in jest, read a bit up. You may want to pay particular attention to the post that talks about different responses to different stimuli. The reason BJJ was brought up is that it is a better choice than the original art portrayed in the video.
    Yay? What is your point here? Are you trying to say that your art is the best? Or that your are?

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