Question about Krav Maga

Discussion in 'Krav Maga' started by Bonnell74, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Eric M. Miller

    Eric M. Miller Samurai

    what can i say? grannies just don't want to ker-smash their way to victory like some of us young ragamuffins.
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  2. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

  3. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Bonnell74, did you watch this show about KM?

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  4. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

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  5. Bonnell74

    Bonnell74 Disciple

    I think that was pretty good stuff! I was impressed by the blindfold test and wonder how accurate that test is. I guess that is a good example of what the difference between MMA and Self Defense really is; situational awareness with more than just your sight. Thanks for sharing Mr. Bond.
  6. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

  7. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    I ate Thanksgiving at Cindy Bir's house (the blond lady in the light blue shirt at 3:25). She has 2 Emmys and an incredibly cool family. She just sent me 2 scientific studies on Ving Tsun kung fu strikes too that were done in her lab (I need to see if I can find the slow-motion capture of me punching a metal test plate thing.... all of our hands were bloody at the end :p ).
  8. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Did you read the US ARMY Thesis I posted which includes a multiple page description on KM?

    I also has several other Martial Arts....
  9. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    Of course I read it, as I read tons of the other stuff you posted. It is almost 100% marketing, however, with no explanation of what is actually done. Saying "It works for smaller people" does not make it true. Saying "It is based on the real world" does not make it true (in fact, I see a lot of KM that is based entirely on stuff that has no basis in reality).

    That entire article thing was 100% marketing, which is about all I keep seeing out of KM. I'd like to know more of what they actually do, as opposed to what they talk about. How do they achieve their goals?

    Also, the explanation in there about "plucking" is so completely way off. The "weakness" is not where the choking arm grabs the other arm. That part of the hand is "locked in" by the elbow. And the RNC is not a move you can just "think" your way out of, and not just a move you can apply and have it work. It's a move you have to practice and experience thousands of times. The arm drag-over pull-off takes a lot of work-- it doesn't just automatically "work" on its own. It also works better if you drag your neck under the arm and get the arm into a "closed" position. It also works better with correct posture and facing. None of that is gone into because it just assumes "it's gonna work" pretty much. The explanation of the "front choke" is way off too, because nobody actually chokes like that. This just shows another similarity with RBSD stuff. It is not based on reality. The "10 Principles" is simple marketing too. How does KM training achieve those principles?

    And notice here, Bond, that my reply to you is long and goes into detail. I don't just say "whatever" and blow you off with some commercialized marketing techniques. I actually added some ideas to the discussion. Now here's a video that explains the RNC escape a lot better than the Krav Maga assumptions there. He even talks about the "pluck", and says it will help prevent an RNC but it will not get you out of one. Meaning: THE KRAV MAGA EXPLANATION DOES NOT WORK IF THE PERSON ACTUALLY GETS A REAR NAKED CHOKE ON YOU:

    He's doing a very complicated leg positioning technique though. I prefer the simpler arm-drag down, but my ground skills are pretty basic.
  10. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Fine...don't do Krav Maga then...
  11. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    I won't because it sucks and doesn't work, and is simply based on RBSD non-sense.
  12. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Dagon, not many styles have a decent defense against a RNC that is in already, on the ground. It does have a good defense against a standing one. I have only seen RNC defenses from the ground in jui-jitsu. I think the thing that sets Krav Maga from other self defense styles is the mindset and the intensity. I have seen a lot of self defense techniques, and I think Krav Maga has the best collection, but 90% of those I've seen before in different styles. It is a brutal martial art, but not because of its techniques, so much, but for the training methodology/mindset.
    Krav Maga employs a lot of chaos drills, where you stand in the middle of a group of 4-10 guys, and they all come at you with whatever they want, they don't go in turn and several can attack you at once. The technique he used is spot on, blindfolding doesn't change anything as that is the exact situation and response we do, you don't have time to think and you had no idea someone behind you was attacking until they did. You make the wrong move A LOT when doing these drills, but the point is you keep trying, ferociously, to survive. They don't stop drilling if you make a mistake, or don't do the technique correctly the first time, you keep struggling. If you hit someone to hard you keep drilling and apologize after the drill. If you get caught in a hold you can't get out of, everyone strikes you until time is called. There are no time outs or questions or conversations of any sort.

    If I sound like I love Krav Maga, there is some truth in that. After having done martial arts for 25 years and always wondering how effective the self-defense techniques were, Krav Maga gave me confidence in the techniques used under stress and gave me a whole new agressive suvival frame of mind. You can use this brutal frame of mind in any art, I imagine, to increase your survival chance just using that art's techniques, but the drilling they do is unique to Krav Maga, and essential I believe. As a self defense art focusing on standing defense, I believe it is without peer. It is not the best FIGHTING art, though, as that is a different skill set and focus.

    Hope that sheds a little light on it!
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  13. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    First off, thanks for the response. The problem that I have in that thing is that it takes something VERY difficult, and passes it off as though Krav Maga has it "solved". It is written like fantasy marketing, and as if the people involved never actually tried it. Of course, the best art to study to escape an already applied RNC would be an art that does them all the time: BJJ.

    Plenty of arts do though. I love the one I've developed through my Ving Tsun training. My escape, however, is based on fundamentals, and is the same as an escape from everything else. It is not a "move", but application of Ving Tsun principles.

    I have no problem if something "steals" stuff from other arts, but the real danger is to base an art on different "moves". That's why I'm interested in the fundamental practices of KM, since some of the Krav Maga literature out there even mentions that "moves" are meaningless.

    I'm a big believer that learning moves is bullshit (well, or at least only "beginner" level).

    That sounds rather cool. I'd love to see how that works, and it also sounds fun. How does this work for a beginner though? Just slower? More obvious ukes? Less resistant ukes? How does this work at advanced levels if someone knows some technique (and maybe just uchi-mata's the guy in the middle)?

    Is there at least a safe word? ;)


    And again, thanks for the response!
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  14. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Totally agree on that, which is why we teach BJJ also!
    Principles are what it is all about. Re-occuring principle which, when I forget it, makes escaping harder when ignored is the "build a structure then move around it" principle.
    Hard to determine how much is "stolen", as there are only certain ways the human body moves and can be manipulated. I believe that most styles just figured stuff out, by constant trial and error, when it comes to self defense. When Krav Maga refers to moves being meaningless, they mean delicate, precise, and multi-stepped moves. For instance, arm-bar choke defense, you raise both of your arms as high and back towards the face of your attacker, and simutaneously pull them to the arm that is holding your neck, drop your weight and step back, using your body weight and movement to create enough space to slip out. Not too different than other styles I have seen. But then, you follow up with palm strikes, elbows, knees, groin kicks and even head butts, if appropriate. And that is one of the most complicated "moves" in Krav Maga. Stuff you can do even while freaking out.
    With beginners, the attackers only attack them with the defenses that the beginner has learned. For instance, the first thing you learn is defense against a straight punch, next level they add hooks and such. Then it goes into bearhugs and so on. So, if you are a white belt in the center, surrounded by all levels, they will only use punches, and when you are on the outside as a white belt, with an advanced person in the middle, you will only attack using the attacks you've been trained to defend (in this example, punches). There is a lot of screaming going on by attackers, to help make the situation worse, and if the defender is doing ok, defending correctly most of the time, everyone takes it up a notch, because a major part of the drill is understanding that you aren't always going to do whats right, but to keep fighting. When you have defended against a grab or punch, you then follow up with many strikes, to try to disable this attacker here and now, until you are attacked again(which usually happens immediatly, but not always!!)The attackers punching use 25%-50% power, whilst grabs are done with at least 75%, 100% at intermediate level or higher.
    "Cucumber, shmumber, ONLY STOP ON THE BELL!!"

    Like I've said before, Krav Maga's best attribute is not the technique you train in, but the intensity that you train in. The whole frame of mind. I'm pretty sure that old school karate had a similar mind set, and I'm just as sure that a lot of Krav Maga schools don't train at the intensity level that ours does, AND I know there are some that are INSANE.

    Always like your viewpoints and frame of mind, Dagon, you definitly have a Budo mind!

    Oh, by the way, I learned lop sau(sp?) drill long time ago, and I still use it to this day, even when sparring, easy to overwhelm your opponent and neutralize his punches at the same time. Great for beginners to get use to a fist flying towards their face!
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  15. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler


    Thanks for that. So if "intensity" is one of the most important things, what would be the difference between a "good Krav Maga" place and a bad one? Also, is that intensity what is supposed to make a smaller person be able to handle a larger foe? What are some other important fundamentals, and how are those trained?
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  16. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Intensity and frame of mind don't replace the techniques. Just think about doing Wing Chun, but all sparring is full contact, and you don't let up once you have the upper hand, don't stop when you get struck. When you do a form, its all out, full power, full speed. Everyone you train with is more into it than you. Machismo. The Techniques are good and sound, but in order to survive, you need to take that mental step into survival. Here is an example, bearhug defense from behind, arms trapped, technique is very similar to what I learned in Kenpo. However, when I trained in Kenpo, your partner grabbed you gently from behind, and waited patiently for you to attempt the manuever. Once you were done, you were done. In Krav, your opponent grabs you and tries to pull or push you, you get free, you might follow up with 2 palm strikes to head, grab head and throw some knees, front kick to groin, then an elbow to the head, and if your opponent falls anytime during this, you keep striking. You strike fast and hard, not slow and pre-arranged.

    Other fundamentals would be their isn't a whole lot of variety, only a handfull of strikes and such, so you get real familiar with these techniques. Krav Maga uses the hands up instinct to defend versus strikes to the head.

    I am not sure a Krav Maga school without much intensity would be bad, per se, as the techniques are still sound, but the intensity raises it above.

    So, in a nutshell, viciousness. Kind of like hearing about Kyokushinkai Karate 30 years ago, they practiced sparring without pads and hard, seems a bit crazy to Shotokan stylist, and for a long time, the Kyokushin fighters were unmatched, they were doing the same forms and techniques, but with more intensity.

    By the way, Dagon, you drive me crazy. =P
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  17. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler


    This sounds like broken teeth and a concussion. We typically do "full contact chi sao", but to the chest, as it is both an area that can take hits more easily, and it's a harder place to hit on someone. But we also stop once there is a "break" or a "separation", as that reforming of the touch (the bridge), tends to often cause hands to fly up (towards the face). It's a fun practice to do every so often though, but not every session.

    We do everything without pads, without mouthguards, and without equipment of any kind though. I'm guessing a good full-out Krav Maga session would have to pad those soccer moms up pretty well. ;)

    This tends to be very bad for form/posture/position. :p I mean, doing it sometimes is a good idea, to see where your weaknesses are throwing your balance off (practice your kung fu under a thousand lights), but in my Ving Tsun school we believe that you should be completely relaxed while you are punching the other guy's teeth down his throat. So that is how we typically practice forms. Intensity without relaxation tends to create weaknesses (not that the intensity doesn't overwhelm these weaknesses sometimes).

    For instance, it is common that intensity can cause you to overextend on a punch, making you very weak to takedowns, and very likely to throw yourself over. Do you work on posture under intensity? In my experience, losing your posture is almost never worth it.

    You can do "alive" training gently too. When the uke is "giving in", that is still white belt level stuff. :p

    This makes it sound like being the uke in Krav Maga is a terrible position to be in! :eek: :LOL: That stuff is important though, because in an actual grab, the opponent is NOT NOT NOT going to just stand there and wait. They will typically lift, drag, fall onto, or push. Doing that in practice is important as well to test everything out. I've done this with lots of students as well: show them how Ving Tsun works against something like a bear hug, and point out (over and over) the fundamentals: sinking weight and low center of gravity, facing, posture, posture, posture. Then we do it once or twice and it works for them. Then I do the same thing, but more alive and with pushing, pulling, etc. Then I have to point out where their fundamentals are breaking ("Get your hips under your spine"... "But then I'll be sitting on the floor!!!"... "And that's when it will work."). And that's when they get the lightbulb moment.

    This is a very good idea, and one of the reasons that I think boxing is one of the best martial arts (and yes, people argue with me all the time over whether boxing is a martial art). :p

    I then tend to have to remind people that in an art like BJJ, with thousands of "moves" and a variety of "techniques", that those things are all secondary. BJJ is about the fundamentals of positioning, positioning, positioning. With good positioning, you can do thousands of different techniques. With thousands of good techniques, but no good positioning, you won't be able to do any of them.

    Also, when my friends ask me to show them some _ing _un moves, I tell them that we only have one move (punching people in the throat 20 times). It always turns out pretty humorous after that.

    They still are crazy! Dang, those 100 man kumites are freakin' NUTS. And I really wish my stomach could take the type of punishment those guys are into.

    Unfortunately though, there aren't many Kyokushin schools out there, because they tend to not be very commercially viable. :*(

  18. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    We wear boxing or mma gloves. Smart guys wear groin cups.

    First, that was just a visual, if you will, on how the intensity is all the time. Second, in our striking (not self defense), it is all about using the whole body on the strike, then relaxing between. Relax-explode, relax-explode. You can do a form at full power and intensity and still have great form, because you still have to adhere to the rest portion, you can't just run through the whole form. Ving Tsun is really based on speed and accuracy at the expense of the power (not that it isn't powerful, speed and accuracy make it so) and brute force that most striking styles use. Guess thats what you get with an art designed by a girl!! :p

    The defender definitely works on posture. Sometimes, so do the attackers, but in an effort to make it fast, loose and chaotic (a.k.a. SCARY) sometimes strikes come running in! I love seeing someone running in with a punch and the defender just moves out of the way, all that energy going forward!
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  19. Bonnell74

    Bonnell74 Disciple

    Well Eric, that is the most complete and interesting breakdown of Krav Maga that anyone has posted on here yet; much appreciated!! I am actually looking forward to checking out the KM place around the corner from me and maybe down the road I will be able to answer these questions for someone else wanting to know more. Thanks again!
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  20. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    I hope it is good for you, and you come out with good stuff! Please keep us updated, sir!

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