Teach a kung fu guy what it means to be a Krav Maga guy.

Discussion in 'Krav Maga' started by Dagon Akujin, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. MattCMMA

    MattCMMA Master

    Be also sure to let them know that allowing someone to approach you close while you're holding your firearm with a fully extended arm is an easy way to get it taken away. All of these techniques shown are effective in close range. The problem is with a gun..you don't need a close range. Anyone who has taken any type of basic firearm course will know to keep their distance with their gun, and to not hold it out with a fully extended single arm.
    Dagon Akujin likes this.
  2. Bonnell74

    Bonnell74 Disciple

    Haha!! I know what you are saying about the can of worms. This has been my back and forth thought process for awhile now. The truth is that these two places are right across the street from each other, so they are both feasible. The BJJ place is only 75 bucks a month and no contracts, where the Krav place is 95 bucks a month and although month to month, you still have to sign a contract and I am not a fan of that concept. I have been in Escrima for over a year now, plus I have a couple years of Kenpo I did before I moved, so my striking and weapon defense is probably better than average. The only thing I do not have is grappling experience with the exception of 6 months of shootfighting, which only touched on the basics. I honestly have just never been much of a wrestler/grappler and don't know if I would be very good at it, which after realizing what I just wrote seems like a pretty silly reason not to go and try it out. I guess Krav isn't going to teach me any striking I have not done and any weapon stuff that I do not do in Escrima, so maybe I have been looking at the whole thing all wrong. Well thanks again and to be honest, this thread has helped me really think about the reasons why I practice and what I want to learn. I am looking for well roundedness and that is what I need to really focus on. I may just have to try both and see what I like better. It was a good can of worms! (y)
    Dave76, Eric Dufurrena and RJ Clark like this.
  3. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Just got off the phone with Quantico...

    By the way, I agree with you. That is why I would never hold a weapon that close or in that manner. That is the difference between being held up at an ATM or telling the bad guy to get on the ground from thirty feet away. One is a hold up, the other is controlling the situation from a tactical perspective with a weapon. The good news is that bad guys generally are not trained in the proper use of a firearm. Also, never did I mention that it was remotely possible to disarm someone at something other than close range.

    But you are a betting man. So the odds of not having a clue as to how to do any of this would increase the odds of surviving? I say no. So, I will stick with the IDF and the Marines and what they teach. Just in case!
  4. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Bonnell, go where you think are weakest and learn that...after all you are not getting married to the dojo......
    Bonnell74 likes this.
  5. Bonnell74

    Bonnell74 Disciple

    Good point Mr. Bond! That makes the most logical sense. I should not make such a thought process out of the whole thing and just go for it. Thanks, good advice as well!
  6. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    I was actually going to pop off a similar reply. All gun disarms are essentially last resort close range techniques. The video has a Star Wars opening with a full disclaimer, so they're not by any means claiming it's anything other than that. I do agree that almost no one takes into account muzzle flash/a weapon cycling when discharged and the effect that can have, in particular with the grabbing the barrel/slide of a gun. I had a mini-blowout with the other instructors where I formerly taught on the "fancy hands" after grabbing the gun when it would most likely fire due to the grab. But again, any disarm is a they're-going-to-kill-me-anyway option and it's better to train them for the possibility of that deadly scenario. The old rather have it and not need it vs need it and not have it argument. They don't take up too much time, an hour or two each week will keep you fairly sharp (most of the fundamentals of a gun disarm are basically the same for everyone, it's just drilling them in various positions that take up the most time)
    Mr.Bond likes this.
  7. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Hehe I know how you feel, but maybe that would be the reason you should go do it, because you are not very competent! Especially if they will let you go for a month without contract, seems safer. But as I always say, the people you train with are just as important, if not more so, than the art, because if you don't get along with the people, you just wont go. Good luck!
    Bonnell74 likes this.
  8. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    You're a real internet tough guy, Bond. And your responses are making you look like a feeble child.

    So you still practice KM? After 10 years? All I've met are people who have done 1 or 2 weekends, and then talk like they can take-on the entire world. Do you have a lot of weekend tough guys who don't train for very long but try to pass themselves off as something unstoppable? What is the training like after that long? Is it mainly about preparing the mental aspects still?

    I'd argue that it really depends on what those forms/katas are being used for. If they are being used as a "series of movements/techniques", then I'd say there isn't much to get out of them. If you are using them for examination of posture/position/structure/power-dynamics/etc., then I'd say there can be a lot more to them.
    Numerous arts have simply been to kill, especially in martial arts as applied to warfare. But then again, even the idea of the nuke was that you'd never have to use it, and that it should be able to keep peace. So maybe.

    This is embarrassingly bad on many levels, and shows that this person has no idea what happens in "the real world" (and isn't KM all about "real world"?). You are not Sub-Zero. An attacker is not going to freeze and let you do 20 different things while they stand there arms outstretched. Also, are you really thinking you'd rather get shot than let an idiot take your car? Eff that: walk home.

    Also, oh crap those Marine wrist-locks were bad. At least Marines are training for situations that require them to be ready to take the situation from bad to worse. People need to stop thinking they are Sub-Zero with this RBSD freezing stuff though. People do not freeze.

    I've never heard of BJJ for that cheap. Whoa.

    And ask the place about the contracts. What I've found is that contracts are often not something for the school: they are something for the bankers. My kung fu school is looking at contracts because bankers/lenders/property-owners/landlords like them. We don't want to care if a person wants out of them though. So ask how they do it and what they actually mean if you sign one.
    Eric Dufurrena and Bonnell74 like this.
  9. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Was that a PM? I sure didn't see that on the thread. Not that it's OK to respond that vehemently, but it does seem that you went from asking about What is KM? into full-on brutal hair-splitting critique of all KM materials presented.

    Agreed on the dojo freeze tag. People tend to move when pain is inflicted, more specifically they tend to either explode out or contract in from pain. Momentary shock from surprise can have them freeze up for let's say roughly around one second (sometimes pain can have the shock effect, but it doesn't 100% of the time) which is why a simple jab that stops an inch away from their face can have a greater shock effect than actually hitting them, especially if you're trying to neutralize them as a threat (read that as non-life threatening self defense moment) with the minimal amount of force. I'd like to respond at length but that will have to wait until later as I have to get going. (y)
    Bonnell74 likes this.
  10. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    :LOL: I was just going to ask the same question.
  11. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    I am ignoring Mr.Kung Fu man from now on because it is clear to me that he has been hit in the head way too many times.

    You asked a question and all your answers are insulting, so go away Ip Man.
  12. Bonnell74

    Bonnell74 Disciple

    @Dagon...yes, the guy teaches boxing and BJJ at a little place about a mile from me. I thought I read it wrong, but it is only 75 bucks a month with no contracts; dude even puts it on the website. I am guessing the guy just does it for fun and not as an income, but don't quote me on that. Sometimes those little places are little hidden treasures, as I have found out in the past. I trained under a Judo guy for a little while that had 40 years of Judo and about 25 years of Aikido that he taught for fun at a local health club because he was retired and was just bored. His skill was awesome and he was very knowledgeable in Judo; taught it for competition and for self defense depending on what you wanted to learn it for, and it was all for 5 bucks a lesson, which came out to 40 bucks a month. Only reason I quit was because I moved.

    Good point about the contract thing. I should probably research it a little before just assuming it is like the last time I tried to do that; did not work out well for me. Anyway, thanks for the advice, always like to hear different ideas about things because it gives me a different perspective than how I may have looked at it myself.
  13. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    RJ..What is PM? Thanks.
  14. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Yup, it is in our regular curriculum now, though. We still do some drill such as defense circle, where one guy is in the middle and guys on the outside attack, and they don't wait for you to be ready to jump on the middle guy. They can strike, grab, even tackle the poor soul. A pure KM school is waaaaay more intense, however. You lose that "reality " edge pretty quickly, so I would say that it would help you to keep going. However, a lot of people might find it boring after that long, but I do Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai and BJJ, so it is a small part.

    Having said that, the actual self defense techniques are very sound, simple and effective, and you could learn those and practice them without having to experience the "kill or be killed" mindset, which is how we approach it, especially for children.

    Since we don't do a separate class for KM anymore, no more tough guys. Basically, Tres (school owner) looked around for the best in striking, grappling and self defense, and blended them. Add Tae Kwon Do for flavor (I love forms!).
    I am biased, as I have done many systems, including Kenpo, Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Tai Chi, and a teeny bit of Aikido, which is why you see a great review for KM from me, as I have seen widely different techniques and found KM to be quick, effect, and makes sense, so it is easy to learn and easy to actually use. I type to much, hope that helps!
    Mr.Bond, RJ Clark and Bonnell74 like this.
  15. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Private Message. That escalation kind of reminded me of A Christmas Story when Schwartz skips triple dare and goes straight to triple dog dare. However, I don't know if that was pulled from the end of a longer conversation and thrown out there. But that doesn't matter to me and how this gets sorted out doesn't either. Hopefully there'll just be an internet version of a handshake and that'll be the end of it...
  16. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog


    RJ, I got it shortly after posting...no PM, Ip Man made it up. Do not see the need for that.

    You saw what I wrote and posted.
  17. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    If that's the case then it reflects even worse on him than if you had actually said it for the impression it leaves on others. Overall, I have no idea WTF is going on between you two so I just have to step back and shake my head in amazement...
  18. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Yes, it is incredible. Talking about shooting the messenger. All I did was post information from KM experts and my experience with KM.

    And he says that I wrote all that crap about the IDF! Which I did not. Posting idiotic comments under my name! Unless someone logged in and did it under my pen name, which I don't know if it is possible.

    But I must apologize to Ip Man and his descendants......they do not deserve to be mixed up with this guy.

    Good luck to his students.

    Anyway, this is the last post I will write on this thread. Just wanted to clear this up.
  19. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Now I just used the quote function and then deleted some of it to streamline what I wanted to address. Dagon, if you used the quote but then decided to fill it in with a crazy rambling death threat, even in jest, then that's fucked up to put it bluntly. If you ask what appeared to be an innocuous question but then decide to act like an a-hole to the guys who reply then that's your prerogative. But doing the internet/forum version of putting words in someone's mouth that they didn't say is disruptive and detrimental to the entire forum (that's not even addressing the fake death threats, if he didn't write it). I guess we'll see how this all shakes out in the end to see who said what...
  20. Dagon Akujin

    Dagon Akujin Jimmy Rustler

    Let's look at how this all took place:

    1. I start a thread asking about what things KM guys focus on.
    2. Bond posts a bunch of links. Okay, that's a bit odd (and really against standard internet etiquette), but fine at this point.
    3. I read all the links. That's a lot to ask someone to do, but still, I spent some time reading most everything in those.
    4. I then wrote a response, posting the positives and negatives that I saw.
    5. Bond responds, to a long post with lots of questions, simply with "Whatever", and "I work with LEOs".
    6. I respond with some jokes, and some points about Bond's post.
    7. His response? "I answered you questions and you didn't like it!" "Don't ask questions if you don't like the answers!" No response to any points, no conversation about any ideas that were brought up.
    8. I respond and point out that I believe Bond's answers are childish (again, with some humor thrown in, since after all, this is the internet).

    If you really think that his responses were answers to any of my questions, or conversational at all, then I believe you are missing something.

    I've met plenty of other MA guys who respond to everything like it is a giant attack, and that's why I called Bond out on that. Me posting questions does not warrant his responses of "Who cares what you say I work with real military guys." That's a total BS and childish way to respond, and not how one has a conversation. If you notice, the rest of us have been having an actual conversation about KM ideas in here, but even to them Bond has simply responded, not with conversation or answers, but with "I know real military guys".

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