Thoughts on the "SINE WAVE" as established by GM Choi Hong Hi in ITF.

Discussion in 'Taekwondo' started by Martialist, May 6, 2013.

  1. Martialist

    Martialist Each One, Teach One


    Look, Honestly, I did the SINE WAVE for 10+ years. It is useless. I met spoke with a real close friend(Grandmaster Kim Bok Man) of General Choi and he stated that he thought that sine wave was useless. He approached the General before his passing and and told him. General Choi agreed with him and wanted to revert, take out, the Sinewave technique out of Taekwondo. But the ITF and other related federations were too big and indoctrinated, and basically to late to change because of General Choi's I'llness at that time.

    If you don't believe me look up Master Kim Bok Man. He is basically one of the handful surviving members of original Korean Martial Art and it's transformation into Tae Kwon Do in the late 40's to 50's.


    Taekwon!
     
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  2. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    ["Kuyaken, post: 30541, member: 2814"]I need to understand the SineWave, what's it for? I've read the responses but it doesn't truly explain "WHY" its done.
    What's the application of the technique, with the "up/Down" effect comes into play?
    Where did it originate from as I have researched some ITF schools don't teach the Sine Wave to their Forms (Poomsae, Tuls etc)? Why is it only ITF Taekwondo that adopted it, why has no other style adopted it.
    I read somewhere that General Choi wsa traying to differciate TaeKwonDo from Japanese Karate. Is it more Western Schools putting the Sine Wave in as opposed to Korean School etc/
    I am Japanese/Korean Karate based as you already know and we tend to glide without a Sine Wave on the Forms I'm used to doing.
    Why is it only practiced during the Practice of Forms and not in any other discipline within the art like the 2-Mans or the Self Defence or especially the Sparring/Fighting

    Looking forward to your responses etc[/quote]

    It's
    It's exactly what you said. He was just trying to make it look different from shotokan karate as he took most of the 24 patterns of Taekwondo from shotokan. The sine wave is supposed to add more power, the theory is that the punch will gain power from the up/down wavey movement the same way a wave gains power..... However, every engineer or physicist I've spoken to say the up/down motion can't have any significant effect on the forward force/power of the punch.

    So to answer your questions, 1) it's done to make tkd look different from katate (specifically shotokan) 2) it's only done by some itf styles because it's bollocks and they only do it to make it either more "original" or just to look different. 3) it's not used in sparring cos it doesn't f*ckin work! It's useless bullshit that's too slow!

    Hope that answered your question's :)
     
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  3. Martialist

    Martialist Each One, Teach One

    Seriously dude, No need to explain something that literaly has no explanation to :) Really, SINE WAVE was just made up and justified by General Choi all for making it look unique which he did very well. I did it for 10+ years and I know first hand that it's BullS***! You will have guys try to justify it any way they can but if you have an open mind you will understand that it just does not make sense...

    I teach my style TKD and the sinewave is completely taken out of my curriculum....


    Taekwon!
     
  4. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    Shame there's no Dojangs that have the same ethos as you in Manchester UK

    I'd love to earn my Black belt in TaeKwonDo but Not Olympic Style and Not Sine Wave Style, Choi Kwang Do well don't know what happened there but their videos on YouTube tell their own story with forms similar to the "Hurticane"
     
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  5. Vidadi

    Vidadi www.jkd.az

    Dear Martial Artists,

    My name is Vidadi Hajiyev, I am martial arts instructor from Azerbaijan Republic.
    I appologize for my knowledge of English, I learned it in my early university years.

    I would like to share with you some personal opinion on ways of stepping from one stance to ther stance in Taekwondo, using sine wave from ITF style of Taekwondo.

    I researched that there are 3 ways of stepping in evolution of ITF TKD.

    1st Method: Classic stepping way from karate. When you step from one stance to other keeping same height, no up and down motion. No sine wave that time (till 1970-1975)

    2nd Method: When you naturally raise up from stance before you place your foot forward and drop to stance. Up and Down motion, this method is original sine wave #1 in ITF TKD. Sine Wave as it explained me by my teacher is used for generating extra power: First step you lift your weight up and in a second step you drop your weight down including your mass to block or strike. Hip twisting also includeed in this motion, it executed when you go up you half facing forward (hip 45 degree twisted to backward), when you drop down you twist hip forward and maintain full facing forward. It easy to demonstrate as explain. My knowledge of English is not so good, I appologize for it.

    3rd Method: This method came after 1990, mainly used by North Korean ITF TKD masters and by some major ITF TKD organizations. First step You slightly dropping down before to start to raise up, second step you lift your body up and in a third step you drop your weight down including your mass to block or strike. Down - Up - Down motion, modified sine wave #2.

    It need to practise very long time in order to build special body structure and use correct timing among executing sine wave #2 and hip twisting.

    This motion (Sine Wave) need a time to execute, in real-life situation it is impossible execute this sine wave because your action will delay, first action always faster than reaction on it, in this reason most ITF practitioners cannot demonstrate sine wave in real sparring or in real self-defence.

    I can to note as former member of special operation group (anti-terror) and as former full contact fighter of combat sports (boxing, kickboxing and MMA) that it is very complecated to use sine wave#2 in real life situations.

    I had a reach experience in both street fight and profesional sport fight, and as current QCC fighting instructor of special forces I reserched that human react very fast and naturally under adrenaline pressure in extreme situations, these movements are very easy and direct in its nature.

    I practice TKD forms using natural step with light but very hard hip twisting, it is more realistic and very fast. In real extreme situation human do only nutural movements which is more suitable for human biomechanics.

    Here is my video how step and punch, it is not related to TKD, but I hope it may be interesting for you:



    It would be very helpful to me if you send me comments, advices, notes, some different views and opinions. All of it can help me in development and improvement.

    Also I am going upload regurally free video lessons on various topics related to martial arts and self-defense.


    I had trained in Military Sambo, Boxing, Freestyle Wrestling, Muay Thai, Grappling, Ju-jitsu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kali and a litle in Wing Chun. My training experience is about 28 years and martial arts teaching experience about 18 years.

    You are always welcome to Azerbaijan to my dojo for training free of charge or just as a quest.

    I wish you health, happiness and harmony in life.

    Sincerely,

    Vidadi Hajiyev
     
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  6. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Tovarich Vidadi,

    Any Systema?

    Robert
     
  7. Vidadi

    Vidadi www.jkd.az

    Hi Robert,

    I trained in military sambo. Systema had some roots in military sambo.
     
  8. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    I found the information and video, really good. Its similar to how we train in Ashihara Karate (I'm sure there's a few Ashihara, Enshin & Kyokushin clubs near you).

    I've more or less given up hope of grading in TKD as my body isn't as young as it used to be hahahA
     
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  9. Vidadi

    Vidadi www.jkd.az


    As I understand you mean "Hurticane" from Great Master Ken's Curriculum. But it is a very effective method of fighting, especialy against multiple attackers:) It better to see explanation of this concept from its creator on video below:
     
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  10. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    I'd like to weigh in here :) even though it's an old discussion!

    Sine wave is a very important part of Taekwon-Do. One that separates it from most others.

    The idea behind sinewave is to get your body in motion. Stood still punching, your arm is the only weight travelling into the person. So roughly 5-10kg. Add your body to the movement and that puts your weight in limbo, and allows you to throw the weight down your arm. Upping it to your full body weight.

    The 2nd part is gravity. Sine wave should go down, up, down. The last part is to bring gravity into the equation.

    When you come down, punching, with all your weight, gravity will add more force to what you're already sending.

    However, it must be done at the right time. If you finish the motion, then punch, as some have noted, it's pointless. It must be done at the same time. So that your punch extends, and your heel hits the floor, at the same time.

    Try it in slow motion. Punch a bag, not a heavy one, but do it slowly, with minimal effort. Simply extend your arm into the bag. Then do it again with some wave done correctly, and you'll see the difference in the bag
     
  11. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    It is only performed in the forms(Poomsae) and no where else in the training Syllabus for ITF. If it was that effective would you not find it in every part of the syllabus.

    Have you not Read Martialist's posts on this topic.

    I can understand the double hip twist but not the Sine Wave.
     
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  12. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    It is in every part of the syllabus. It's in the first section of the encyclopaedia. The first part is fundamentals, which are kept through all patterns, self defence, sparring, and drilling exercises
     
  13. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    What?
    The downward motion is useless unless you are striking downward. An upward motion can be useful as you are striking upwards and have the leverage of the ground.
    This is just physics.
    It is predicable and has no linear effect. This is a very similar discussion as to why twisting the fist while punching entered the scene. The perpendicular component of ANY force vector is zero.
     
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  14. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    Ben, please add a video of "FREE" sparring where SineWave is being used or self defence techniques where SIneWave is being used because I can't find any at all. just in the Tul's/Poomsae
     
  15. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Actually the drop step (boxing) or whatever any other art/style calls it has a dramatic effect on an individual strike from a fist (I cannot comment on other strikes as I don't utilize it for any others). There's simply no way to use it for every single strike you throw, check that, no practical way to use it for every strike
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  16. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Never said that the "lunge punch" as an extreme version of the "falling step" would not have additional power. I should clarify my statement from earlier to say: "The downward motion has no (is useless) at adding force in any other vector than downward." The opposite is the like the upward spiral of the uppercut. Both can generate more force, marginally with the speed of the body added to the speed of the arm, but NEITHER adds power linearly.
    That was my point... and yes, agree with practicality issue for every strike or even multiple unless they are being driven back.
    Thinking about it, I could remove "marginally", as they don't exist without the motion itself... i.e. - It isn't an uppercut, or falling step without that motion.
     
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  17. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    The drop step is not simply a lunging punch, I most often use it with nearly any jab variant. That force vector may very well be directed down at an angle, but it's all delivered into the target. In the instant that the fist strikes you essentially make your body a single unit to "catch" all your mass. There's no marginal addition of force, it is significant. Again though, there's no way to be able to utilize it with every punch against an opponent...
     
  18. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    I wasn't saying the "drop step" was a lunge punch, but a similar force addition by physics... Guess I am failing to communicate. Feel free to use the sine wave. J/K
    I don't consider the "falling step" jab or a stutter step cross which would do the same body mechanics "drop" during delivery to be the "sine wave". I do agree that they are powerful... But don't agree from the body mechanics that the power increase is derived from gravity. That's all I am trying to say.
     
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  19. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    The bouncing during sparring is a perfect example of it. Whilst it doesn't look the same, it still facilitates the body being kept in motion, and nearly all techniques are delivered as the person comes down from a bounce. Whilst it's not called sine wave and not focused on religiously, it is the same thing.

    I think when people think of sine wave, they think of the old way, where we used to dip down by about 10 inches. The technical review board changed this a few years ago, now it's about 2-5cm dip, as it's faster, and deemed enough to transfer the force required.
     
  20. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    I do Knockdown Karate (Ashihara Karate) Oyama Sosai was a good friend of General Choi, We don't bounce and neither do Muay Thai Fighters.

    In my view the bouncing isn't Sine Wave its keeping you light on your feet ready to kick.

    Show me some self defence stuff and some sparring etc where you can genuinely see "Sine Wave" being utilised

    Thanks
     

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