Thoughts on the "SINE WAVE" as established by GM Choi Hong Hi in ITF.

Discussion in 'Taekwondo' started by Martialist, May 6, 2013.

  1. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    I'll have a dog around this evening and see what I can find.

    Best in mind that Sine wave is just a tool to keep weight in motion. It's not just something that was thrown in there for the sake of it
     
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  2. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    This...
    And this... are the respectable/reasonable answers I have read on "sine wave"...
     
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  3. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Bouncing around or any repetitive up & down/sine wave motion is not a good idea against anyone who is not going to stay at an outside range doing the same. I don't foresee you being able to find anything where it is constantly utilized that isn't some version of point fighting or the like. That also is only in regard to other strikers without taking into account how much worse it is to do versus anyone that wants to take hold of you to grapple...
     
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  4. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    AND THIS!
    Is amplifying the same thing of my anti-sinewave thinking... and I say this sarcastically against jumping : like if I jumped straight up and kicked or punched someone one the way down... gravity would help me to obtain horizontal power. Of course a hammer/ax/elbow etc with either foot or hand sure... IF the above didn't happen... and you were taken "clean" off your feet and dropped like a ragdoll. E.G. - WWE
     
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  5. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    The contribution of gravity has to be minimal compared to musculature exertion, like less than 1%, don't you think? In the limited time and distance, gravity has almost nil effect. If you could jump from a 20 story building, then I think you could add gravity, but you need time and distance to create any measurable amount of additional force. Think about the difference between stomping on a board as opposed to just hopping from a curb onto a board. The higher you jump the more force you can add, but for punching you won't move a couple of feet up, and you wouldn't be striking straight down, either. Don't think we need mythbusters to work on this one.
     
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  6. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    You pick up a 50kg weight, raise it just a few mm and drop it on your foot. It still hurts a lot and comes down with a heck of a lot of force yes?

    The downward motion is only a minor benefit anyway.

    The main idea behind sine wave is to keep the body in motion. Using your whole body weight to hit the target. From a stand still point, using sinewave gets your body moving.

    People tend to be permanently moving in sparring anyway, so there's little need to use sine wave to get the body moving, as the result is already achieved by the typical bouncing around
     
  7. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    Ok lets try this

    firstly, you have a Bar on a spring setting, you push it down it doesn't get that far using the sine wave theory

    Next, you take the non-sine wave which all other martial arrts use, you push the same bar up and you move it a lot more in distance.

    If you watch fight science or similar programmes the techniques come from the ground NOT from the "sky"

    TKD as Martialist has already stated was wrong to have the Sine Wave, have you even researched who the Grand Master he quotes is?
     
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  8. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    I'm sorry but I don't understand the bar on a spring experiment your suggest. Having trouble visualising what you're talking about!

    With all due respect, I do not think that Martialist is right in his verdict on sinewave.

    To say that Taekwon-Do was wrong to have sinewave, just doesn't seem right. The Korean Taekwon-Do and technical review board are the ones who deem whether technique is right or wrong. Not individual instructors. They put in year round training, and dedication to making sure that techniques follow the principles of Taekwon-Do and are as powerful as can be, regardless of people's sizes and weights.

    As for grandmaster Kim Bok Man, it is not a name that I have heard in my 15 years, and whilst I have the utmost respect for those that have earned their ranks, I cannot find anything relating to his thoughts on some wave. So all I have to go on is a story passed down from person to person, delivered by a person who says sinewave is useless. The only things I can find to read are a timeline of where he has been and trained/taught, and a few videos of Americans flailing sticks with little to no effort.

    To simply throw away fundamentals from something waters down what it is. If I were to make you a roast dinner, but leave out the meat, would you still call it a roast dinner? Is a hamburger without buns still a hamburger? It should be accepted as it is. I would be mortified if I had spent my entire life creating something, then finding out that people had taken half of what I had given, throwing away half because they didn't like it, then still claim it as the thing I had created.
     
  9. Kuyaken

    Kuyaken Karate for the streets not just for trophies

    With respect, IF the SineWave was actually a useable technique wouldn't WTF have adopted it too as well as the other Korean Arts at least.

    You still haven't provided SineWave in Self Defence and Sparring evidence - it only happens in the Poomsae. That's why the Sine Wave is floored
     
  10. Boo-Sabum Ben

    Boo-Sabum Ben Initiate

    No, as WTF contains next to no similarities anyway, regardless of what is considered effective or not.

    I'll try an find some examples tonight for you, as I finally have an evening free.
     
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  11. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Me smash science talking:LOL:. It may not work for you fellas on paper, but integrating a "drop step" into a punch has a jolting effect. Again I only throw it in with straight punches and it's impossible to utilize for every strike based on either or both the mechanics or impracticality if attempting to use it for every punch. Drop step sounds dramatic or WWE but it's easily integrated into your combos without a "tell". It happens in addition to throwing the punch as you normally would and you're already, or should be, moving your head and changing levels with your body movement & footwork anyway (read that as NOT bouncing around).
    It's used sparingly and opportunistically and I can only properly use it with straight punches. As far as utilizing it all the time for every type of strike, absolutely no way.
     
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  12. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    Funny... was sparring last night... no face contact. My opponent "dropped in" when I was throwing a cross to their chest guard... and it landed on their chin. Fortunately, I had just enough time to pull with very slight contact... would have been really ugly otherwise.
     
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  13. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Is sine wave truly fundamental to tkd? To use your roast dinner example; if I made you a roast dinner then covered it in salt is it still a roast dinner? Yes. It is, but with enough salt to send your BP sky high it's pointless as a meal.

    Same with adding up/down movements where they're not needed. In a walking stance (gunnen sogi/forward stance -call it what you will, you know what I'm on about) the downward motion DOES move the upper body forward slightly which coul very well add a negligible amount of force to the strike but in a sitting stance (annun sogi or horse stance) it won't make a bit of difference. In an L stance (niunja sogi back stance .. Whatever) the upper body moves backwards as the body drops. That can only reduce force.

    TKD and Taekkyon are the only martial arts I know of that employ this bouncy around thing. Sure every striking system has its own footwork and some is lighter than others tkd being much lighter than most traditional karate styles I've seen but I will never buy that dropping weight downwards adds power to a strike being delivered in any other direction.
     
  14. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Lol. I knocked a guy down once with a head kick cos we were doing "body sparring only" he did the same as your sparring partner. Dropped down to punch as I threw a high round kick aimed at his shoulder... I didn't manage to pull it in time..
     
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  15. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the "drop step" you're on about also involves a forward movement? In which case the dropping of the body will add slightly more forward movement, carrying the body weight farther would of course increase time spent accelerating so there's your power increase.

    The body is more powerful than gravity. If it weren't we wouldn't be able to jump off the ground.
     
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  16. Eric Dufurrena

    Eric Dufurrena The Iron Fist of Fun

    Didn't hurt, really, just some pressure. It was more weight, though, about 175 lbs(80 kg), was sparring last night and my partner was hopping forward to do something spinning, and I was shooting in, he landed all his weight on my foot. No pain at all.
     
  17. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    A very fine point. Just like the sveral changes over the years with WTF. The pride of the Koreans pushes them to modify many things that would connect their present systems (not as much with TSD). I find it very amusing to talk about the parallels of MDK and Shotokan with several of the "mid-aged" "masters". Some get down right offended. Which is funny to me. Also, only the older master's (non ITF) will identify that General Choi, was an opportunist and self serving. Not too different than GM Gee for Hapkido or even Jhoon Rhee to a diminished degree (I still can't help but to like Jhoon). When the Japanese left Korea, it was (& kinda still is) a splintered people. Each wanting to affirm "their status" to the rest. General Choi was no different. He just happened to be in a better position than most to do so. The Sine Wave "idea" can actually be derived from the raising/sinking principles of Tai Chi Chuan. The whole, pushing the ball underwater and releasing it to launch upwards. Only with Gen. Choi, it was used as a "revolutionary principle" put into the core movement tempo during a fight. In TCC it is one of many principles of motion that was only part of natural flow. To be used as part of the method. Not it's driving principle. But, Gen Choi (the "founder" of Taekwondo ;)) wanted something to distinguish the Korean style from that which resembled something of the hated Japanese.
    Can this principle help with power in a fight? Provisionally. Using this motion as the backbone of all techniques will only telegraph, like Martalist mentioned.
     
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  18. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    Pot-ae-to /Po-tah-to
     
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  19. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Tom-ay-to/tom-ah-to
     
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  20. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Son of a...had a reply started that disappeared while I was busy with work. Oh well, I'll try to remember the core of it
    This is a bit duplicitous (albeit tongue in cheek and not malicious) but catching someone when they're changing levels and/or flowing in is not the same as a "drop step" (alluding to "drop step" by saying "dropping in"). The core-crunch-straight-post-punch-unibody-"catching"-your-weight happens as the punch is landing and until that moment the mechanics of the punch are all as they would have been without the "drop step". Oh yeah, let me add in a few more dashes for downward-force-vector to that :LOL:. This is why I call it drop step, that was how it was tagged when I was taught it and its easier to say than that mouthful I just typed. Unfortunately it might conjure up some WWE stompy-jump maneuver when trying to describe it remotely without having the benefit of the "See/feel the difference?"
    Sorry I'm so late in replying. Busy-busy. Hopefully the previous covers it. Had a much more thorough reply mostly done that is gone now
     

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