Why does the USA have such a high Crime Rate? Easy access to Guns is one issue ... what else?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Sensei Martin, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    This simplistic statement also doesn't work. The only firearms that get taken away by the government are from LAW-ABIDING PEOPLE. hmm indeed. I picture the newscast going like this:
    New Fed law bans all handguns, submachineguns and any other weapon under 4 feet in length because it could be hidden under a trench coat and subsequently used to murder someone. There are lines full of felons, gangbangers, and other sociopaths of all sorts waiting to turn in their firearms... Yeah, not really happening.
     
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  2. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

  3. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    Actually, I saw an interesting report on TV that state some law makers are now considering to make it extremely expensive to own ammunition, and having handguns modified only to accept these new type of bullets, which would each have a bar code. Control the bullets, control the guns.

    Something like $5000 to fire a single bullet. Thus, someone would think twice before firing a gun.

    Sounds promising.
     
  4. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    What is it that you're supporting with that stat? No firearms for citizens or no handguns? If it's no handguns then that stat does nothing for your argument. It doesn't tell you what percentage of crimes was with handguns. If anything, since you mostly have rifles and shotguns yet are #14 on the list then you would have to argue for a long gun ban in Canada since that's what's doing most of your firearm murders.
     
  5. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

    There we go, put it together so there's no need to go back to those other posts.
     
  6. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    Thanks, RJ. Actually, the numbers do show that the guns that are used in Canada for crime are Handguns coming illegally from the USA.

    Numbers do not lie. They speak for themselves.

    If you feel a little frustrated, maybe firing a few rounds of your gun will make you feel better ;-)

    However, there is a GREAT GUN that I think everyone should have! These are super cool ...

     
  7. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Which link showed that stat? I definitely didn't run thru every one you posted. Pointless really, as I said the stats are close enough that when I'm here or there (Can) there's no noticable difference in crime.
    As far as firearms go, I only keep them in the home. But I absolutely support concealed carry for law abiding citizens (and I even gave you the stats to support it, since they play such a pivotal role in this thread)
    EDIT: I did just scan all your links and saw nothing that supports your claim. Please let me know where you got the stats to support Canadian gun crimes are committed by illegal American handguns. More specifically it should be about firearm murders since that appears to be the central theme for this thread.
     
  8. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    Hi RJ.

    It is always wise to red as many facts you can on a subject in order to make an unbiased decision. I am happy you feel safer carrying a concealed weapon. I am just very happy not to bring up my children in a society where this is considered normal. (Although I LOVE the idea of random shots from Pez Guns in public!)

    Half the guns in BOTH MX and CND used in crime DOES come from the USA. Just look at the small arms report published by the UN.
     
  9. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    Actually, my decisions are based more on what I experience rather than what I read. I said it before, the US isn't the Wild West and Canada is no Utopia. I feel equally safe in either country, and have had no experiences to lead me to think one is more dangerous than the other. And all the stats thrown around tonight don't show a large enough gap to even remotely think there is much of a difference.
    I'll check out the UN small arms report this week, just out of curiosity. However, I did find in your data (for 2006) only 57% of firearms-related homicides for Can were committed by a handgun (without regard for where they came from) For you to be so vehemently against them I would have thought that stat to be much higher (it is much higher in the US)
    To repeat myself, I only keep firearms in my home.
     
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  10. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    Thanks, RJ.

    Same for me - USA or Canada - feels the same for me; although I do sense less ``gov`t infrastructure `` in the USA; it is hard to explain.

    By far, the safest place I have ever felt was one of my several trips to Cuba. (maybe it was the Rum and Cigars), but crime is almost non existent there, and people were highly educated. Just their freedom of movement and speech was very obvious.

    I remember when I worked at a large Telco in a USA city .... I used to bring my boss over the counter codeine from Canada (it was illegal there), and Cuban Cigars ... and everyone *freaked* that I had the Cigars with me. I simply laughed as I lite them up and enjoyed them. Castro would have laughed!
     
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  11. ghost

    ghost Disciple

  12. Battodoka07

    Battodoka07 Warrior Monk

    Going along these lines, let's say every law abiding citizen turns in their handguns just because the government tells them to. How are you going to enforce this with the criminals Sensei Martin. Do we raid every house of every known criminal without a warrant? Obvisouly for a total handgun ban to go through it would have to pass Congress here in the US and be signed by the President. BTW I'm surprised you haven't used the Federal Bureau of Investigations Uniform Crime Report in your stat collecting as all law enforcement agencies report their crime stats to them.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

    Looking at the table above you can see a state like Illinois, which has some of the toughest gun control laws in the US still has more murders committed with a handgun then a state like Arizona, which has much more lax handguns laws.

    And violent crime has decreased in the US.

    "In 2010, an estimated 1,246,248 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 6.0 percent from the 2009 estimate.

    • When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2010 estimated violent crime total was 13.2 percent below the 2006 level and 13.4 percent below the 2001 level.
    • There were an estimated 403.6 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010.
    • Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.5 percent. Robbery comprised 29.5 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.8 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2010.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime

    As you can see our aggravated assault numbers is much higher than the total percent of murders and firearms where use of firearms accounted for 20.6 percent of aggravated assaults.

    I'm also not understanding your comment about the US not having "gov`t infrastructure ." As someone employed by the federal government I can tell you we have plenty of government infrastructure and it is growing.
     
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  13. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Sensei Martin, why are you citing statistics from the year 2000 to prove your point?

    If you want to try and make your point, you should at least do so with far more recent data, not data that is 12 years old.

    In far more recent data (from 2010) Canada had a homicide rate of 1.62/100,000 and the United States was ranked at 4.8/100,000. However, even if we are talking solely about the homicide rates and no other crime, there are certain aspect of the United States other than guns that can account for the differences. The United State tends to have homicides localized to certain areas. The United States is also far more densely populated than Canada. The United States has a far more diverse population than Canada, and the United States borders Mexico, and with that comes the problems associated with illegal immigration and drug cartel crime. If you want to do a true comparison of homicide rates, you need to factor in a lot more than gun ownership and have to actually look at the multitude of factors, including economic, racial, ethnic, and social inequalities.

    An example: Israel has a fairly low homicide rate (2.1/100,000) despite the fact that gun ownership is far more common there than the United States and despite the fact that terrorism is a daily threat in Israel. So obviously there is a lot more going on than merely gun ownership. You seem dead-set in your biases and claims about whatever differences there are being attributable primarily to gun ownership, but it is far more complex than that.

    Also, your assertions have to do with violent crime in general, not just homicide. But the most recent data is that Canada is about 2.4x more violent than the United States (roughly 950 violent crimes per 100,000 in Canada as opposed to roughly 400 violent crimes per 100,000 in the United States).

    Basically, you have made your mind up about how violent the United States is as compared to Canada and other countries and have decided what the reason(s) for it is/are -- evidence be-damned.
     
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  14. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    By the way, there are things that the United States has had to deal with that Canada has really not had the same issue with -- immigration (either voluntary or forced) of disparate cultures and ethnicities from throughout the world. Canada, despite having similar beginnings culturally, is much different than the United States demographically. The United States had a large portion of its population (roughly 13%) brought here in chains through the horrible institution of slavery. Even after the end of slavery, the legalized disparate treatment of blacks continued in the country of nearly 100 years later, and even then, there have been many vestiges of slavery that we are still dealing with today, including the huge economic disparity between Blacks and Whites as a result of hundreds of years of apartheid policies.

    Then there is that Hispanic population. Just the documented population is roughly 15% of the United States population and that percentage is even higher when you consider the undocumented populations. These populations also are economically disadvantaged and have had an uphill battle with equal treatment. With economic disparity, cultural divides, racism, and the like, violent crime can often be a reality in such communities. The United States has made huge strides towards equality and cultural sensitivity, particularly in the last few decades, but our work is not done yet. The United States has been referred to as a melting pot, and to some degree this is true, but I prefer the analogy to a tossed salad. With that comes some growing pains from clashes of cultures and economic strata.

    These are issues that Canada has never really had to deal with in any real way. Canada is pretty much racially, religiously, and ethnically homogenous. Diversity is one of this country's great strengths, but it also comes with growing pains.
     
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  15. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    You really have an axe to grind with the United States, don't you?

    This is the second thread recently you've seen fit to either state expressly or impliedly that the United States' enemies are made up. And this is but one of multiple threads where you have made some pretty obnoxious (and factually unfounded) statements about how violent you think the United States is.

    Why do I increasingly have this sneaking suspicion that you are a 9/11 conspiracy theorist? You've already made some pretty ridiculous assertions about the United States only being in Afghanistan for the purpose of "expanding [our] empire". That is the sort of unsubstantiated crap the tinfoil hat crowd likes to spew. Hell, you seem to think that Americans are dumb and don't see the "real news" that you in Canada (or other countries) see. You imply or outright state that the government or the media are hiding things from us in news reports.

    Whenever you speak on political matters, Martin, I am reminded of this scene from "So I Married an Axe Murderer":

     
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  16. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Bullshit.

    Crime in the United States has been on the steady decline since the mid to early 1990s.

    Don't know how I missed this gem the first time around.

    You seem to make up whatever "facts" suit your argument.
     
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  17. Mr.Bond

    Mr.Bond Big Ass Dog

    Sensei Martin,

    Why does CANADA HAVE such a high DEATH RATE? LOUSY MEDICAL CARE is one issue ... what else?


    http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

    I don't need your list or any list to know history. It is a fact that in all the countries I mentioned the communist killed more people than the Nazis did. In all the countries that I list, it was illegal to own guns.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

    For some reason you are very anti 2nd Amendment and anti American. So since it is our Constitution and not yours, why don't you butt out and try to fix the lousy health care system in Canada and see if you can reduce the deaths caused by it?

    What the gun control nuts never mention is the the highest crime areas in the USA are the ones with the highest level of gun control. They never mention or care for the people that saved themselves from death or crime in general because they had a gun. They call the terrorist attack in Ft.Hood "Work Place Violence".

    Anyway, leave us alone and please, don't cross your Southern border!

    Mr.Bond.
     
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  18. Enkidu

    Enkidu Destroyer of your martial arts fantasies

    Sensei Martin needs to get off his anti-US soapbox. Frankly, his obsession with what he thinks he knows about the United States smacks of an inferiority complex about his own country. Unfortunately, this inferiority complex, while certainly not the norm, also is not uncommon among Canadians.

    What is funny is that I don't even own a gun, never have, and probably never will. I've fired a weapon exactly once (at a b-day party at a firing range) since leaving the Marine Corps over 10 years ago. Weapons are just tools to me, and tools that I no longer need or care anything about since it was no longer a part of my job. I am far more concerned about getting hit by a drunk driver or someone driving and texting than I am dealing with someone attacking me with a gun or knife. Oh, and guess what? I live in Los Angeles and regularly drive into South Central Los Angeles because I love BBQ and soul food. I've never once had any problems there regardless of what you see in movies and TV.
     
  19. Battodoka07

    Battodoka07 Warrior Monk

    Yes, interesting isn't it. BTW Sensei matter please look at the FBI's UCR and you'll see the data there about crime declining. As you said "as for Stats and numbers - numbers do not lie."
     
  20. Sensei Martin

    Sensei Martin Warrior Monk

    Thanks for the southern ``hospitality`` - this was a discussion about crime and guns. Since this is a major problem and discussion area in N.A. - this has nothing to do with ``anti-political`` anything.

    Your rude and rather obnoxious comments only support the `percieved`` better and than you attitude. Not at all what I expected from a fellow martial artist.

    You made some rather incorrect statements; but I am not surprised since many Americans are rather polarized and are totally unaware of what is going on outside of their own country; if even in their own. :



    So wrong! lol


    The proportion of the foreign-born population in Canada was slightly exceeded in one other country: Australia.
    22.2% of Australia's population was foreign-born, while the foreign‑born represented only 12.5% of the U.S. population.

    + In 1971, Canada became the first country in the world to declare multiculturalism as official state policy.

    Plus - the UN has listed Toronto as the MOST multi-cultural city in the world,
    Australia and Switzerland tie at the second most multicultural countries on earth and Canada is not far behind.

    In addition, it is against the law to classify someone based upon race. A rather progressive concept, IMO, considering we are all African under the skin anyway.

    It IS TRUE that after WWII, Stalin did kill up to 50 million people - many of them from their own country. But, that was the past. So, that comment is out of scope of discussion.

    Even today - in countries with unrest (suc as Syria) - the conflict itself is usually caused by other countries, supporting regime change. Just the other day, Wiki-leaks released papers proving the USA was planning a regime change in Syria for some time, and have been giving rebels $6,000,000 per year since Bush was in power. see here: http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/index.php/topic,13141.0/topicseen.html

    But that is another topic.

    AS FOR HEALTH CARE

    The USA is the ONLY western country IN THE WORLD that does not have universal health care.

    WHO listed the USA as 36th in the world (Cuba was 38), with France is 1, Canada was 30.

    IMO, Health Care is a universal right.

    In the 1940s, Roosevelt had televised and was going to release the "Second Bill of Rights" - which included Universal Health Care. He had died before this footage was released and was passed into law.

    see his speech here: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=16518

    and here:


    Again, this was to be a civil discussion based on facts. I am not impressed over the rather immature behavior of some people here. Shame on you.
     
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