Why I don't corkscrew.

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Judah, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Almost every martial art that includes punching has a straight punch that involves a corkscrewing motion of the hand, rotating from palm up to palm down for impact. I've been taught this in many different arts with pretty much the same reason being given. It increases power.

    I always wondered how a rotation of the striking limb could add any extra power to a punch. Some explained it as being the same as a bullet spinning, but anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows a bullet spins to keep it flying in as straight a line as possible. Rather than to increase power. In the same manner that a gyro stabiliser works by manipulating the Coriolis effect. The Coriolis force acts in a direction perpendicular to the rotation axis and to the velocity of the body in the rotating frame and is proportional to the object's speed in the rotating frame. A paper by Walker et al (1975) conducted a physics theory investigation in to a karate reverse punch. Considering only the masses and a associated forces of the arm. He calculated via masses and recorded arm speeds that his subject could generate 152 KN of force, of which, theoretically 0.05 KN could be attributed to the rotation assuming the arm was a solid cylinder and rotated a full 360 degrees. The writer concluded that this could be considered negligible.

    Now, I prefer to hit with a horizontal fist. I believe the arm/shoulder is in a stronger position with the palm facing the floor so a certain amount of rotation can occur if its not in that position when I start the punch but as I often have my palms facing forward the better to catch incoming punches there is usually little to no rotation. I have also noticed, while doing press ups in a muddy puddle, that rotating my arms near the top of the movement seemed to make that last portion a tad bit easier when your muscles are burning like fcuk! This lead me to the idea that the shoulder girdle is more efficient whilst doing that little rotation due to the increased involvement of the pectoral muscle and lateral deltoid.
    Blade Maker likes this.
  2. Ian White

    Ian White Samurai

    Speaking personally. I have always taught the rotation when teaching traditional styles and use it as a traing aid for the body as much as stances ,hip movement. etc etc.
    But in a fighting situation whether you do it is up to each individual and each situation. what does it matter as long as the punch is effective.
    Ryannmnzo and Judah like this.
  3. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I agree, doesn't matter how it's done as long as it works. TBH it just gets up my nose when I hear people preaching that it's an incredibly necessary part of the technique. :)
  4. UK-Student

    UK-Student Disciple

    What is a shoulder girdle?

    Your technique sounds little different to boxing technique, therefore sound and in all likelihood how most people of all styles would actually punch. Note that this is how they would actually punch as opposed to the punching shown in the forms, which is of course different because hand as far back as the hip shows a bigger punch and absolutely no "guard" (presumably due to clinching/infighting in the original interpretation).
  5. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    That's interesting. The only other use for a corkscrew punch that I heard comes from boxing/combat sports to open up a cut or to split it open more (most of the corkscrew motion being executed at the moment of impact). I never bothered with it, my only rule for any of my boxing strikes is that I don't compromise the wrist in any way to "make" certain knuckles strike.
    Judah likes this.
  6. Ian White

    Ian White Samurai

    I look at it as training the body to be under your control all of the time. Applying hand strikes correctly on proper stances and kicks with the leg and foot positioned correctly. This is all done in the dojo in lessons trying to create an automatic response in a combat situation
    Anyone with any sense would not use long stance or horse stance in a fight. A quick way of getting your arse kicked.
    I prefer a boxers stance which allows use of hands and feet as necessary never kicking above waist height, The knee is my favourite target for a kick and when you get close a well placed elbow does a lot of damage.

    Don't confuse what you see on the competition mat with the real thing.

    If you can't talk your way out or leave voluntarily and this guy wants a fight . Drop him hard and fast. Not my words
    my Korean Tae Kwon Do instructor
    Regent St-Onge likes this.
  7. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    I've never heard that (open a cut) reason before. :)
  8. MadoreGojuRyu

    MadoreGojuRyu Master

    I have always learned this way and now teach it this way also. its the way it has been in Goju since it started and I actually do use it in a fight. I have trained for so long using it that its natural now. my wife and son have pointed out that I also use it while training the makiwara and heavy bag. I have fought semi pro matches and have watched the matches again and noticed that I use it then also and I was highly successful in my short career but was cut short with a major concussion.

    I think its the same as different martial art. not everything works for everyone, depending on how they are built even can kinda throw a wrench in the technique.
    Judah likes this.
  9. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    The shoulder girdle consists primarily of the scapula bone and the clavicle bone or collar bone which move together as a unit. The shoulder girdle muscle are those which attach to and move these two bones.

    My technique is no different to any other punch in as far as what generates power.
    RJ Clark likes this.
  10. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    Excellent point. I've often wondered why someone with short legs would want to do TKD or whether someone with big hands would be better suited to aikido etc... Sometimes what a person wants to do isn't supported by their body proportions.
    Sherratt likes this.
  11. Colten Wilson

    Colten Wilson Disciple

    i study wing chun and we dont use corkscrew punches but i have karte friends that iv talked to them about it and i did some looking in to it becouse i also was told that it had more power and i came across a show that was comparing punches from differnt martail arts and the corkscrew action did add a little power but the thing that i dont like about it is that it takes more time to throw them, me and my buddy did a little test i was throwing a liner punch and he was throwing a corkscrew punch we are about the same build and he has about a year and half more exp then i do the test was that we would each throw ten punches as fast as we could and i was about 4 punches faster, so the corkscrew was a little more powerful but i could throw more liner punches faster and speed pluse valiositey equles power and it the corkscrew punch left bigger holes in your defence of your ribs then the liner punch
  12. NWPSNZ

    NWPSNZ Disciple

    i see it as a way of training the body. We are taught to relax right up to the moment of impact then tighten (or focus as its called) then relax again. (like a whip) i teach that twist right at the end of the punch is the point where you tighten. so when your palmup your body is nice and relaxed.
    Judah and Sherratt like this.
  13. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    I was taught that it was to help protect me and focus what power I was generating.
    By rolling the forarm over without rotating the elbow, the two bones of my forearm, the Radius and Ulna, entwine, giving them greater strength than on their own and also focusing the energy coming thru my arm towards the first and second carpal bones, with which you hit when performing this style of punch.
  14. Dave76

    Dave76 Deheuol Gwyn Dragon

    Which knuckles do you actually hit with?
    Karate taught me to use the first two, index and middle. But Wing Chun taught me the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, but obviously this is a completely different style of punch.
  15. Judah

    Judah fights in tights

    First two knuckles. Although the middle knuckle seems to be the one to land most often..
  16. Master of Nothing

    Master of Nothing Psychotic Pacifist

    Corkscrewing. Although many people don't use or "need" it per se. It does increase you power by adding a "flick" reflex. It should start between 2 to 4 inches from impact (allowing the both muscles functions to get maximum tension upon impact). This "secondary drive" allows for a compensation for the energy lost getting to the target. Apply just before impact, increases the "sink" factor or "Injecting the Venom" in the punch.
    Personally, I use the Shito Ryu variation. Which is applied the same as other straight punches. But, only rotates to a 45 degree position. This allows me to use some of the corkscrew flick as well as a light bit of reach. Also, with the elbow still predominately pointing downward, it proves quick defense against an armbar. The complete corkscrew has gotten my arm almost snapped several times. Haven't had that problem since.
    Caneman likes this.
  17. Sherratt

    Sherratt Disciple

    In TKD we not only twist the punching arm but we also rip the guarding hand back to further increase power. I was also taught it helps to trasfure more of the force of the punch into your oponant rather than back into you. we were told to think of it like the difference between using a nail and using a screw. you can hammer a nail in faster but screws hold both stronger and and theyre much more efficient. as one of my masters (whos name i cant spell since ive only met him once) once said "anyone can throw out a couple or a few fast punches. But why bother throwing out a few fast punches when you can take them out in one hit"
  18. Caneman

    Caneman Test all things.

    I think it is primarily a training issue... I "corkscrew" on almost every strike... as is the Korean way. But, my fighting modifies to a varied rotation by boxing... with at least one - the low rib shot with next to no rotation. Jab varies 15-90, cross almost always 90, uppercut a full 90 or even more if you are stepping at an angle at the time. Guess I could say it is all over the place.
    But I think more than the strikes, I rotate when driving full power on a hard block.
    I agree with this completely on the tension of moving loose hand to tensed, and the effect in the apex of strike.
    Master of Nothing likes this.
  19. Colten Wilson

    Colten Wilson Disciple

    "anyone can throw out a couple or a few fast punches. But why bother throwing out a few fast punches when you can take them out in one hit"[/quote]

    becouse if you miss with that one big punch your in a bad spot and with more punches you have a better chance of hitting the guy you keep him on the defencive and you can get just as much power with 2 or 3 well placed punches then one big one oh and it takes alot more energy to throw those big punches
  20. RJ Clark

    RJ Clark Tree Ninja Staff Member

    I'd like to interject on this to explain about not compromising the wrist to "make" certain knuckle/s hit. It really depends on the type of punch and the range it's thrown as to what knuckle/s hit (the ones that would hit naturally without any bending/twisting of the wrist). My jab and cross pretty much always end horz and what knuckles hit depends on my opponent's and my position and my target on his body. For a long range uppercut (actually a vert punch shooting in under or between his hands), long range hook and an overhand typically the first or first two knuckles hit. A close range hook, shovel hook, and uppercut typically the last three knuckles hit, those punches are thrown with my palm facing me. I simply let my body execute the strikes in the way that feels natural. By not forcing angles (of the wrist, arm, legs, et al) speed, precision, power, and transitional flow come easy.
    Judah likes this.

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